Amount of paternity leave we are given is a disgrace

[Gamma Knives]

Usually I think I am more liberal than most of this forum but in this case it looks like I'm not.

FMLA provides up to 12 weeks off. You don't get paid but it is your child. If you view it as a priority to have this time then save up (either PTO or money). Children cost money. If you are in a training program and aren't there for several months then you may have to delay completing the program to make the time up. Why is this unreasonable? Why should time you aren't there count?

If this kind of benefit is important to you then consider it when applying for a job. If enough people demand it employers will be pressured into offering it. If a physician wants to be paid as a european and get european paternity / maternity leave I'm happy to discuss that in hiring.

I think time off should be offered but I don't understand why it should be months of paid time off and count towards completion of your training. Seems like wanting your cake and eating it too.

[resident_1]

Because that’s how you take care of people that live in your country. How do you support a healthy society.
Many of these issues have been discussed for years now. Lack of these supports in this country for all people is resulting what we see now. Declining life expectancy, infant mortality, poor health outcomes despite having a lot of money spent, people just being fed up and going out into the streets.

regarding medical education, criteria for sitting for board exams. It feels like it was made by old white men who were running the healthcare system when women were not allowed into medicine and largely worked in nursing and another supporting roles. It is taking quite a bit of time to change this.

[Random1]

You could always make training programs a year longer to account for time off during the program, and also decrease the pay , since you are not actually working.

[Gamma Knives]

regarding medical education, criteria for sitting for board exams. It feels like it was made by old white men who were running the healthcare system when women were not allowed into medicine and largely worked in nursing and another supporting roles. It is taking quite a bit of time to change this.

I'm perplexed by this statement. Is this specific to maternity leave? I genuinely don't see how board criteria are discriminatory against women. Is it because old white men are incapable of being fair?

Certainly there must be some limit in how much time you can be away from training and still be considered adequate. I don't see delaying graduation as a punishment but you need the training to be ready to practice independently. A couple kids during training could be 6 or 8 months? That is a lot of time. If someone is away for an extended time due to illness or paternity or maternity that time needs to be completed.

I view having children as a personal responsibility. Certainly society has some obligation and benefit to helping raise children. A discussion can be reasonably had on how much that should be expanded (certainly pre-K education IMO). However, I find the idea of mandating private employers paying people to have children odd. If it is a public benefit have a public fund for leave.

[burritos]

Because that’s how you take care of people that live in your country. How do you support a healthy society.
Many of these issues have been discussed for years now. Lack of these supports in this country for all people is resulting what we see now. Declining life expectancy, infant mortality, poor health outcomes despite having a lot of money spent, people just being fed up and going out into the streets.

regarding medical education, criteria for sitting for board exams. It feels like it was made by old white men who were running the healthcare system when women were not allowed into medicine and largely worked in nursing and another supporting roles. It is taking quite a bit of time to change this.

This society isn't healthy. Fortunately, millennials and gen z will be inheriting the levers of power. Please fix this.

[WorkingToFish]

Because that’s how you take care of people that live in your country. How do you support a healthy society.
Many of these issues have been discussed for years now. Lack of these supports in this country for all people is resulting what we see now. Declining life expectancy, infant mortality, poor health outcomes despite having a lot of money spent, people just being fed up and going out into the streets.

regarding medical education, criteria for sitting for board exams. It feels like it was made by old white men who were running the healthcare system when women were not allowed into medicine and largely worked in nursing and another supporting roles. It is taking quite a bit of time to change this.

I can't tell to which previous post you are replying, so I have to ask, are you saying that declining life expectancy, infant mortality, poor health outcomes, etc is because we don't get enough paternity leave?

[Anne]

We have a lot of friends in Europe. Everything talks about the way most European countries handle parental leave like it’s perfect. But I’ve had European friends state that they felt like it potentially hurt them in their job searches—e.g. young engineer, very dedicated to her field, not interested in prolonged leave with kids—felt that potential jobs would look at her like “you’re just going to get pregnant over and over and never be at work.” Of course they can’t list that as the reason they choose someone else but I don’t doubt the bias exists. No setup is perfect.

I think FMLA where anyone can use it when appropriate (of course, sometimes it’s used inappropriately), but you have to make decisions about how it will impact you financially and professionally, is pretty reasonable.

[Panscan]

Because that’s how you take care of people that live in your country. How do you support a healthy society.
Many of these issues have been discussed for years now. Lack of these supports in this country for all people is resulting what we see now. Declining life expectancy, infant mortality, poor health outcomes despite having a lot of money spent, people just being fed up and going out into the streets.

regarding medical education, criteria for sitting for board exams. It feels like it was made by old white men who were running the healthcare system when women were not allowed into medicine and largely worked in nursing and another supporting roles. It is taking quite a bit of time to change this.

if you're a doctor but have no idea how infant mortality stats are calculated and how our way of calculating them results in them being lower than europe, that's pretty disappointing. It's not comparable. We are much more aggressive with what we call a "live birth" versus other countries and we also have way more chronic disease which contributes to pre-term babies who obviously do worse compared to full-term ones. I know this doesn't fit your political agenda though about those stinking old white men.

[celtics21]

I consider myself a pretty strong advocate for family leave. But as a single person, it gets old (really old) covering for parents on extended leave. And as a military doc, I don't get paid any more for it either. I think universal extended leave to do with what you will is a better solution. You get 12 weeks (and lower pay)-have a baby, medical treatment, travel, do research, sit at home eating cheerios. Or even a sabbatical type situation where every few years, you can take extended leave for whatever reason. I've grown really disillusioned with employers/government deciding whether you have a valid reason to be gone from work. It has a tendency to led to resentment from coworkers who feel like they are subsidizing families instead of supporting them.

[Hank]

I consider myself a pretty strong advocate for family leave. But as a single person, it gets old (really old) covering for parents on extended leave. And as a military doc, I don't get paid any more for it either. I think universal extended leave to do with what you will is a better solution. You get 12 weeks (and lower pay)-have a baby, medical treatment, travel, do research, sit at home eating cheerios. Or even a sabbatical type situation where every few years, you can take extended leave for whatever reason. I've grown really disillusioned with employers/government deciding whether you have a valid reason to be gone from work. It has a tendency to led to resentment from coworkers who feel like they are subsidizing families instead of supporting them.

Consider for a moment the private practice dermatologist or dentist. When he or she is out of the office, who brings in the money to pay for rent, utilities, staff payroll, etc.? The money has to come from somewhere.

[celtics21]

Consider for a moment the private practice dermatologist or dentist. When he or she is out of the office, who brings in the money to pay for rent, utilities, staff payroll, etc.? The money has to come from somewhere.

I have no solutions unfortunately haha, nor do I think it can be applied universally. I'm guessing countries with longer paid leave have significantly higher taxes to compensate, or at least do a better job collecting taxes than we do. I think Sweden gives six months off for employees to start a business? My specific gripe probably applies best in group practice settings where quitting isn't a viable option in the short term-military, residency.

[VentAlarm]

This society isn't healthy. Fortunately, millennials and gen z will be inheriting the levers of power. Please fix this.

Fixing things often takes money and, unfortunately, my generation is left paying the bill for previous generations who felt a balanced budget wasn’t necessary. Doubtful.

[Kamban]

It's kinda sad to read some of the responses and how proud (if I'm reading cynically) / indifferent (If I'm giving benefit of the doubt) ppl seem to be that they went right back to work instead of being able to spend some time w newborn.

i am neither proud or cynical but am a practical person. We are talking about paternity leave here, not maternity leave.

I run a solo practice. If I had taken 12 weeks off, there would be no money coming in to pay my 6 employees. And no one to really take care of my patients with cancer who may have to be suddenly shunted off to hospital oncologists so that I could spend time with the new born.

And to be fair, I did cut down my work hours a bit and spent a lot of quality time with my daughter when I came home that also gave some free time to my wife. And in the nights when my kid cried, I was up holding her more than half the time. I also had more fun time with her after 4-6 months when she was more awake and not sleeping all the time.

Fore me quality time triumphed quantity. I did not miss not having paternal time off.

[jfoxcpacfp]

i am neither proud or cynical but am a practical person. We are talking about paternity leave here, not maternity leave.

I run a solo practice. If I had taken 12 weeks off, there would be no money coming in to pay my 6 employees. And no one to really take care of my patients with cancer who may have to be suddenly shunted off to hospital oncologists so that I could spend time with the new born.

And to be fair, I did cut down my work hours a bit and spent a lot of quality time with my daughter when I came home that also gave some free time to my wife. And in the nights when my kid cried, I was up holding her more than half the time. I also had more fun time with her after 4-6 months when she was more awake and not sleeping all the time.

Fore me quality time triumphed quantity. I did not miss not having paternal time off.

I am glad someone finally expressed my thoughts. As a not-a-dad, did not feel qualified to express your sentiment, but it seems to me that paternity time is more for the parents than the child (of course, different in same-sex couples). A newborn baby can get along just fine with the mom’s attention. That’s how we were made and your time will come along soon enough. Sorry to say it, guys, but the dad has lots of time to bond later on when it matters to your child. Paternity leave is a luxury and, if it causes others in your team - not to mention your patients - to suffer in order to handle your unavailability, that is not fair. Baby really doesn’t care and will do just fine if you handle your responsibilities when it’s time for you to step up.

To use a somewhat similar example, my hubs died somewhat unexpectedly a few weeks ago. It has been very difficult and the timing couldn’t have been worse. I took a few days off and came back to work, not because I really wanted to, but because there were people depending on me. You don’t make these decisions inside a vacuum when you are a key person in your role. What other countries’ policies happen to be is irrelevant - you can’t pick and choose one policy alone without looking at the whole. It may suck to you, but it’s something to consider when you make your career choice. If you don’t want that responsibility, maybe you should have chosen a career where you can be more commodity than unique.

[mamaham]

I am glad someone finally expressed my thoughts. As a not-a-dad, did not feel qualified to express your sentiment, but it seems to me that paternity time is more for the parents than the child (of course, different in same-sex couples). A newborn baby can get along just fine with the mom’s attention. That’s how we were made and your time will come along soon enough. Sorry to say it, guys, but the dad has lots of time to bond later on when it matters to your child. Paternity leave is a luxury and, if it causes others in your team - not to mention your patients - to suffer in order to handle your unavailability, that is not fair. Baby really doesn’t care and will do just fine if you handle your responsibilities when it’s time for you to step up.

To use a somewhat similar example, my hubs died somewhat unexpectedly a few weeks ago. It has been very difficult and the timing couldn’t have been worse. I took a few days off and came back to work, not because I really wanted to, but because there were people depending on me. You don’t make these decisions inside a vacuum when you are a key person in your role. What other countries’ policies happen to be is irrelevant - you can’t pick and choose one policy alone without looking at the whole. It may suck to you, but it’s something to consider when you make your career choice. If you don’t want that responsibility, maybe you should have chosen a career where you can be more commodity than unique.

So sorry to hear about the loss of your husband.

I agree with what you and others have said about baby being fine without paternity leave. However, I haven’t seen any mention of the benefit of having dad help mom (I admit I haven’t read all 8 pages of comments...).

first child was in residency and we did not live near any family. Residency program allowed you to move your one week vacation for paternity leave. However, you had to chose this week months in advance. Who knows when a baby is going to be born?! Of course we chose the wrong week! Long story short, not having a spouse to help after a traumatic birth and difficult newborn, was terrible. Family was able to come help later (they too had to put in for vacation months in advance which made planning difficult), but all in all it was a terrible situation. Based on my experience, paternity leave is for the partner’s benefit-especially if no family can help.