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Amount of paternity leave we are given is a disgrace

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  • Amount of paternity leave we are given is a disgrace

    1. Any dads out there who quickly realized how little paternity leave hospitals actually give us?
    In my situation I'm talking about residency allotment (and I assume employed attending deal with this too). At my institution its 3 weeks for dad and 6 weeks for mom.  How little this amount of time cannot be understated. What is surprising is that hospitals (particularly academic centers) employ in my opinion disproportionately higher % of younger workers particularly women.  Yet they refuse to provide adequate benefits for them.
    2. Although we spent 8 years in school and 12+years training and certainly are highly trained professionals we as residents (and I would say employed attending too) have parental benefits far inferior to our friends working for tech companies (after 4 years of undergrad).
    3. We know its not in best interest for child to go to daycare too early, yet we put up with these policies.
    4. Then there is issue of sitting for boards, because taking parental time may make one "off-cycle".
    5. What gets me is our HR calls paternity leave for dad "time for bonding" (anyone think this is completely out of touch with reality?) Bonding? How about calling it "much needed infant care for benefit of child well-being).  Although we get total 12 weeks of FMLA, after 3 weeks of paternity leave we have to use vacation weeks prior to being allowed to take sick hours since paternity leave is "bonding time" and not "sick time".
    6. This discussion doesn't even touch issues that female physicians face when they are looking for work early in their careers.
    --how hospitals don't pay maternity leave unless you have 1 year employment (to be FMLA eligible). I mean a physician is an investment, that brings in some cases millions to the hospital, yet they don't give maternity leave?
    7. In my opinion the reason tech companies have such appropriate benefits is that they are much more progressive than hospitals (who I see being run by men in their 50s+ who have grown up with idea that wife stays at home given their high earnings).

    8. Millennial residents and now attendings are different.  Millennial dads wish to take care of their kids, wish for their wives to have careers as well and be more or less on equal footing.  We wish to have fair parental benefits for both mom and dad.
    The millennial physician generation is also unique in terms of % of physician couples (this I think is somewhat reflected by idea of assortative mating).  Just look at 2016 couples match 1987: 346 couples 2016: 1046 couples
    http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2016.pdf
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/23/upshot/rise-in-marriages-of-equals-and-in-division-by-class.html

    *bellow is paid # of weeks
    Netflix: 52 weeks for both (1 year)
    Adobe: 26weeks for moms; 16 weeks for dads
    Amazon: 20weeks for moms; 6 weeks for dads
    Apple: 18 weeks moms, 6 weeks dads
    Change.org: 16 weeks for both
    Facebook: 16weeks for both
    Google: 18weeks mom, 12 weeks dad
    Microsoft: 20 weeks moms, 12 weeks dad
    Twitter: 20 weeks moms, 10 weeks dad

    http://time.com/money/4098469/paid-parental-leave-google-amazon-apple-facebook/
    https://www.entrepreneur.com/slideshow/249467

     

  • #2
    is this paid or just leave with job guaranteed?

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    • #3
      3 weeks sounds amazing. Just a few years ago you supposed to come back the next day. Seriously, its residency, what would you expect and of course they may try to extend your training, they arent going to let you go without all the work received.

       

      The reason other companies and most obviously tech companies give so many benefits is because they are competing for their workers. The medical system is not competing for residents. If you recall you competed for them and they have federal authority to collude and keep wages artificially low. The medical system is not a free market except for a very few instances, on either side provider or consumer.

       

      If you wanted more family time you should choose a better specialty with good hours even in residency or choose to be private when youre out and work your own schedule. Im in a surgical specialty and I work 3.5 days a week for many of these reasons, but residency is residency and it will be over before you know it.

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      • #4
        I think we all agree leave is pitiful compared to other developed countries.

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        • #5
          Hahaha I got 1 week in 2015, my buddy at another program was allowed 1 week only if he used all of his vacation up first. We made it through unscathed, as did our wives and children.

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          • #6
            I was a partner in a large group.  I got 3 weeks paternity leave.  I was grateful and happy to have it.    The problem with more time off is that when I'm off, other people in my group have to do my work.  When they have kids, I have to do their work.  It all balances out in the end.  If I want more time as an attending, I can take leave without pay.

            As a resident, you're supposed to be in training.  If you take much more time off, you will need to repeat the year.

            Regarding the companies you cited above:  As someone noted, they are competing head to head for some of the best talent.  Also, Amazon is notorious as a terrible place to work.  All of those companies have Silicon Valley culture, where you work long hours and never leave.  It's misleading to look at one benefit and ignore the rest of the job.

            In this world, you're "entitled" to nothing.  Yes, you're  a millennial.  You think that before you were born, the world was primitive and ignorant.  Now you're the enlightened one here to bring civilization to the savages.  Actually, you're just  lazy and entitled.  You had the child. No one forced you to do it.  Deal with the consequences of your own choices.



            –how hospitals don’t pay maternity leave unless you have 1 year employment (to be FMLA eligible). I mean a physician is an investment, that brings in some cases millions to the hospital, yet they don’t give maternity leave?
            Click to expand...


            Because pregnant doctors take jobs with large groups, have a baby, take the full maternity leave, and they quit and move on.  It happens all the time in my group.


            8. Millennial residents and now attendings are different.  Millennial dads wish to take care of their kids, wish for their wives to have careers as well and be more or less on equal footing.  We wish to have fair parental benefits for both mom and dad.
            Click to expand...


            Right, because until you had kids, parents didn't want to take care of their children.  Do you ever listen to yourself?  I hereby appoint you as poster child for the millennial generation.

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            • #7
              Ok resident 1 I have to agree with AlexxT on several of his points.  I don't know your specialty or plans on a practice type.  I am a doc but also a small business owner.  If I can't keep my costs under control none of my employees will have jobs.  There are theoretically lots of benefits out there but someone has to pay for them. I currently employee 3 nurses. They job share a position. One of them is early pregnant.  Her main job is in L&D in the large hospital next door.  I will not be paying her maternity leave or her husband's paternity leave.  Her benefits come from her main job.  What I pay her is extra money. I assume if paternity leave is paid for by a big institution like an academic medical center then all employees including cafeteria workers and janitorial staff would qualify. I don't think you can pay some staff and not others. Once you get out in the real world you may encounter an "eat what you kill" productivity compensation system which will make you not want to take time off.  The bottom line is medicine really is a business and you have to be able to manage your costs.

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              • #8
                I am no longer a resident.  What I am describing is that individuals who have invested a considerable amount of time (their healthiest years (20s and early 30s) need to advocate for parental benefits and other benefits (those widely available in European countries with solid social safety nets).  Its benefits that educated people in this country must have, otherwise you work for employer that simply does not respect their employees.

                Responses to my post also mirror an American attitude towards work and towards social benefits (parental leave being one of them.  I.e. an attitude of working as hard as you can, and not have any rights of benefits (benefits that are good from public health perspective).  The quote "In this world, you're entitled to nothing" explains this.  Remember that in many european countries standard of living for educated people is higher than here, but such information is kept away from average citizen of this country.

                Regarding Millennial influence on medicine, I believe it is already happening.   It started with duty hour changes in 2011 (which coincided with millennial entering resident training), and subsequently desire for no-call/shift employment. Millennials are the largest work force participants at this time.  A culture shift is in the making in medicine, as retirements accelerate. A culture shift away from hard lines of those of AlexxT.  Our med school classes are 50%+ female (not the <10% 1960s).  The field needs to reflect changes in demographics and values of the largest physician cohort that milleneals will make up in next 5-7 years.

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                • #9
                  Count your blessings that you got 3 weeks.

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                  • #10




                    I am no longer a resident.  What I am describing is that individuals who have invested a considerable amount of time (their healthiest years (20s and early 30s) need to advocate for parental benefits and other benefits (those widely available in European countries with solid social safety nets).  Its benefits that educated people in this country must have, otherwise you work for employer that simply does not respect their employees.

                    Responses to my post also mirror an American attitude towards work and towards social benefits (parental leave being one of them.  I.e. an attitude of working as hard as you can, and not have any rights of benefits (benefits that are good from public health perspective).  The quote “In this world, you’re entitled to nothing” explains this.  Remember that in many european countries standard of living for educated people is higher than here, but such information is kept away from average citizen of this country.

                    Regarding Millennial influence on medicine, I believe it is already happening.   It started with duty hour changes in 2011 (which coincided with millennial entering resident training), and subsequently desire for no-call/shift employment. Millennials are the largest work force participants at this time.  A culture shift is in the making in medicine, as retirements accelerate. A culture shift away from hard lines of those of AlexxT.  Our med school classes are 50%+ female (not the <10% 1960s).  The field needs to reflect changes in demographics and values of the largest physician cohort that milleneals will make up in next 5-7 years.
                    Click to expand...


                     

                    European physicians would love to come here to practice. They get paid 1/3 of what we do.

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                    • #11
                      The american attitude comes with 5-10 times the pay. You want euro benefits you have to pay for them some way or another. The average may be higher, but that speaks nothing to the average doctor lifestyle, european physicians cant believe what we make. Of course they work less, but these are the trade offs that everyone knew 100% about ahead of time.

                      I mean, I will be the first person to take that 1 million a year without much work or responsibility, but that isnt reality. Medicine has a lot of issues, and Im very antagonistic to many of them (eg, think boards should be shuttered, etc..). This, well it sounds great, but why didnt you put off kids until after residency if it was that big of a deal? Life has choices, trade offs and consequences. We try to work it in our favor, but what else can you do?

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                      • #12


                        Regarding Millennial influence on medicine, I believe it is already happening.   It started with duty hour changes in 2011 (which coincided with millennial entering resident training),
                        Click to expand...


                        That wasn't because of millennials.  It was because of a specific death and a lawsuit and subsequent publicity ( although the death was likely unrelated to fatigue, and unlikely even due to anything the physician on call did ).


                        Our med school classes are 50%+ female (not the <10% 1960s).
                        Click to expand...


                        They were already 31.4% in 1982, and steadily rose to around 50% by 2002.  Again, not a new phenomenon, and not millennial related.  But then, you already think that you invented the concept of caring for your children, so why not take credit for this as well.

                         


                        A culture shift is in the making in medicine, as retirements accelerate.
                        Click to expand...


                        No doubt, but that's not a problem for me.  It will be for you, though, because the doctors who "take care" of you when you get sick will be millennials. But you won't be able to find them.  They'll all be on vacation or on sabbatical.

                        Seriously, who do you think will be doing the work if everyone is off shift and on maternity leave?  Hey, how about this:  If you have a child, you get 18 years of paternity leave, so you can be home until they go off to college.   I'm sure we could set up a system like that, but tell me, where will the money to pay you come from?  Oh, 18 years is silly.  But you want what, 6 months.  Who will pay you?  Why should they pay you?   How will it be fair?


                        I.e. an attitude of working as hard as you can, and not have any rights of benefits (benefits that are good from public health perspective).
                        Click to expand...


                        You can take all the time off that you want to in your own private practice.  Tell me, how long do you think you would want to keep your solo practice closed?

                        Oh, you didn't mean you would do it in a private practice.  Maybe what you really mean is that you want to do this to your partner (s).   How exactly do you think the world works?  You want to stay home, but someone else should pay you.    It's simple:  you get paid for the work you do.  If you want to stay home, you can, but you won't get paid.

                        I think you would benefit from reading a basic economics book.  What you're proposing is the tragedy of the commons.

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                        • #13
                          I dont think I work a lot, and can choose to be off whenever I want (with commensurate drop in pay), but my pay is great for that time. You have to have somewhat realistic expectations. I love the extra time with my family (mornings, weekends, nights, etc...) but I know I could be making more, no big deal.

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                          • #14
                            3 weeks is generous for paternity where I practice! The fact that they let you use sick leave after vacation for FMLA time off is pretty generous too - we certainly can't do that. Thankfully my husband is not in health care and at least gets 4 weeks plus he can use vacation - and honestly with maternity leave it's not like we would be taking many vacations anyway so there is plenty for this. Maternity leave for us is sick leave + vacation (+a little CA state bonding time pay), so I guess it's not gender specific at least? Would it be nice to have what many of the tech companies get? Definitely! But it's not really that big of a deal if someone in a large tech company is off for several months - coverage is a major headache for us and bad enough just covering the women for 3-6 months.

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                            • #15
                              I got a total of 5 weekdays off for the birth of my 2nd child (first in residency) and 8 for the 3rd (2nd in residency), and that was because I used 3 days of my vacation that coincided with my attending's vacation, then the allowed one week of paternity leave. And there was grumbling in the department when I didn't come back after 5 total days off (instead of 8), and my chief resident had to remind them that I was entitled to 5 days off for paternity leave. And I graduated residency in 2013.

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