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  • #16
    I think the new era of commoditization of physicians will equalize this gap where corporate Med plugs and plays docs and everyone is paid the same regardless of volume and work time.

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    • #17




      I think the new era of commoditization of physicians will equalize this gap where corporate Med plugs and plays docs and everyone is paid the same regardless of volume and work time.
      Click to expand...


      I just don't think that paying everyone the same regardless of production is a realistic business model. Corporations exist to make profits and they will do what it takes to get people to produce. That means that pay will always be linked in some way to production.

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      • #18
        In my own experience as female MD negotiating is a big part of it. Myself and a few of my partners were returning to a group that collapsed all have roughly the with same experience. Their negotiations went much easier and more favorably. They talked with the VP...got what they wanted (3 males). I got low balled twice, after second offer told them nevermind I will stay where I'm at. A few weeks later I got what I asked for. Mind you no marks on my record, liked by staff, was formed associate director. Sexism...************************ Yes!

        Currently they restructured contracts now that we are staffed and everyone is on the same contract. but I could have potentially worked for 2 years making much less than the "males".

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        • #19
          One of the joys of owning your practice is this cannot happen.  I am paid for what I kill.  If I want to work hard I make more money.  If you are an employee you have to worry about this.  It is sad that medicine has made it so hard for folks to have independent practices.

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          • #20
            Similar to hatton1, we were a fee for service group and pay was pretty much (entirely) dependent on how much you worked.  Everyone was quite well paid.

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            • #21
              Real world experience -

              Hired at salary X , was already board certified before starting the job

              2 year after, there was no way of  negotiating contract, did  not increase a penny, anyway I continue working for some other reason. I actually like my job except the pay

              same time ( after my 2 years) one of the colleague resigned and they hired a new fresh grad, not certified yet, male physician, higher salary than me and promised increase after board certification so in nutshell even in his first year of practise he is making more than what I make after 3 years for EXACT same job.

              And can I add, its very obvious that the staff likes me better as they are always bitching about him to me( although I do not encourage that and always play a deaf year and tell them it's not  right to talk like that)

              I personally have ABSOLUTELY no problems with my colleague .Just so happen that I am a female getting paid much less with  much more experience for EXACT same job

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              • #22




                Real world experience –

                Hired at salary X , was already board certified before starting the job

                2 year after, there was no way of  negotiating contract, did  not increase a penny, anyway I continue working for some other reason. I actually like my job except the pay

                same time ( after my 2 years) one of the colleague resigned and they hired a new fresh grad, not certified yet, male physician, higher salary than me and promised increase after board certification so in nutshell even in his first year of practise he is making more than what I make after 3 years for EXACT same job.

                And can I add, its very obvious that the staff likes me better as they are always bitching about him to me( although I do not encourage that and always play a deaf year and tell them it’s not  right to talk like that)

                I personally have ABSOLUTELY no problems with my colleague .Just so happen that I am a female getting paid much less with  much more experience for EXACT same job
                Click to expand...


                Everything is negotiable. Leaving the job is a form of negotiation.

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                • #23







                  Real world experience –

                  Hired at salary X , was already board certified before starting the job

                  2 year after, there was no way of  negotiating contract, did  not increase a penny, anyway I continue working for some other reason. I actually like my job except the pay

                  same time ( after my 2 years) one of the colleague resigned and they hired a new fresh grad, not certified yet, male physician, higher salary than me and promised increase after board certification so in nutshell even in his first year of practise he is making more than what I make after 3 years for EXACT same job.

                  And can I add, its very obvious that the staff likes me better as they are always bitching about him to me( although I do not encourage that and always play a deaf year and tell them it’s not  right to talk like that)

                  I personally have ABSOLUTELY no problems with my colleague .Just so happen that I am a female getting paid much less with  much more experience for EXACT same job
                  Click to expand…


                  Everything is negotiable. Leaving the job is a form of negotiation.
                  Click to expand...


                  +1 you will have to go out of your way to ask for more money.  If they say sorry, can't do it, it's easy for you to point to the new hire.

                  If you haven't pushed for a higher salary, or even asked, then you only have yourself to blame on this one. Saying "no way of negotiating" is just an excuse not to have an uncomfortable conversation.

                  Sure it'd be nice if they raised everybody's salaries across the board, and he came on at that rate, but not every hospital runs that way, or can afford to run that way.

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                  • #24

                    The culture of the group she chose is not a good fit. There are certainly many ways of paying physicians and some groups prioritize equal pay.

                    Leaving is not always an easy option, especially if spouse is in training. If the group wanted her to stay, they probably would have raised her pay when new guy started. If they want to make money off her, this is where we are. Some groups definitely nurture more and have to fight off new hires with different expectations.

                    If the group is small and everyone pulls together, this same income model allows for flexibility in other areas.

                    It is not necessarily a better model, just different.
                    Just have to decide how unhappy it makes you.

                    No reason to stay if you don't have to now that spouse is finishing up. Good luck!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      We have had a couple of tough negotiators in our group, and they have all been the men.  "I will take that extra open night shift, but I want combat pay if I do it."  One of the most aggressive negotiators got a bit of a reputation as a mercenary, but he did help out with coverage of some pretty undesirable shifts, albeit at a cost to the group.

                      Our group is slightly more than half women, but none of the women have negotiated as aggressively as this handful of guys.  At the same time, we do give extra bonus paid vacation time as a nice gesture to the women for maternity, once they have been with the group for a minimum of one year.  But most of the moms do end up making less because they bank their time from extra shifts for comp time to apply to family events more than many of the men.

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                      • #26
                         




                        Real world experience –

                        Hired at salary X , was already board certified before starting the job

                        2 year after, there was no way of  negotiating contract, did  not increase a penny, anyway I continue working for some other reason. I actually like my job except the pay

                        same time ( after my 2 years) one of the colleague resigned and they hired a new fresh grad, not certified yet, male physician, higher salary than me and promised increase after board certification so in nutshell even in his first year of practise he is making more than what I make after 3 years for EXACT same job.

                        And can I add, its very obvious that the staff likes me better as they are always bitching about him to me( although I do not encourage that and always play a deaf year and tell them it’s not  right to talk like that)

                        I personally have ABSOLUTELY no problems with my colleague .Just so happen that I am a female getting paid much less with  much more experience for EXACT same job
                        Click to expand...


                        That sounds really frustrating.  My biggest negotiating win came within hours of telling my employer that I was going to be taking a different job (after being told multiple times over multiple months that the issue was not negotiable).

                        There is never "no way" of negotiating a contract.  Your ultimate negotiating chip is your feet.  You just have to be certain you'll be content with your play if your employer tries to call a bluff.

                        Comment


                        • #27







                          The 77 cents on the dollar thing is complete nonsense.  Anyone peddling this is pushing an agenda and has little interest in discussing truth.  When studies control for all the confounding variables the gap shrinks to less than 10 cents on the dollar.  When I took a negotiations class my professor (female) stated that this small gap can be erased with better negotiating skill, or rather than women conforming to gender stereotypes and not negotiating better creates this small gap.  Does sexism exist?  Of course.  Are all situations equal and fair?  ************************ no.  On an individual basis when this occurs I think we would all be united in attacking these problems.  But when talking about broad numbers it’s vital to recognize the confounding variables and other items such as negotiation skill.  Otherwise it’s equality of outcomes one seeks, not fairness of the playing field.  As for where I work everyone gets paid the same.
                          Click to expand…


                          Your professor’s statement sounds like the definitive study on this.

                          I am not a labor economist, and I don’t know the cause of the wage gap.  Maybe it’s sexism, maybe it’s conforming to gender roles, maybe it is the probability that a woman will take maternity leave, I don’t know.  I am pretty sure that anecdotes aren’t they way to identify and solve the problem though.
                          Click to expand...


                          For anyone interested enough in this subject to spend 45 minutes listening to a podcast, this is the best thing I've heard/read on the gender pay gap (it's from the Freakonomics guys):

                          http://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gender-pay-gap-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/

                          Makes it clear that the 73-cents on the dollar claim is pretty misleading the way that it's used but that there appear to be more systemic issues that are causing a pay gap (although it is more like a 10-cent or less gap according to them). If I recall correctly (been about a year since I listened to this), they have a pretty interesting conversation or two that would apply directly to physicians and the types of specialties that are less vulnerable to the systemic issues.

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                          • #28
                            Everyone makes the same in my hospital based single specialty group.  The pot is divided equally each quarter, days off are equalized, and everyone takes the same number of weekend and weekday call periods.  It was two years to partnership, so I suppose someone could negotiate for a little more pay in those first two years, but after that it's all equal. Days off and calls are shared equally among partners and new hires.  For leave after a new child, most people have taken a month of unpaid leave, bookended by a week of vacation on either end.

                             

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                            • #29




                              Everyone makes the same in my hospital based single specialty group.  The pot is divided equally each quarter, days off are equalized, and everyone takes the same number of weekend and weekday call periods.  It was two years to partnership, so I suppose someone could negotiate for a little more pay in those first two years, but after that it’s all equal. Days off and calls are shared equally among partners and new hires.  For leave after a few child, most people have taken a month of unpaid leave, bookended by a week of vacation on either end.

                               
                              Click to expand...


                              both men and women are taking month for bonding time?

                               

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                              • #30







                                Everyone makes the same in my hospital based single specialty group.  The pot is divided equally each quarter, days off are equalized, and everyone takes the same number of weekend and weekday call periods.  It was two years to partnership, so I suppose someone could negotiate for a little more pay in those first two years, but after that it’s all equal. Days off and calls are shared equally among partners and new hires.  For leave after a few child, most people have taken a month of unpaid leave, bookended by a week of vacation on either end.

                                 
                                Click to expand…


                                both men and women are taking month for bonding time?

                                 
                                Click to expand...


                                So far only women have taken leave for this, but I don't think anyone would have a problem if a man wanted to take time off either. We're a small group (4 to 5), and the last two hires have been women.  It does strain the group a bit for one person to be gone for 1.5 months, but we've managed to make it work without hiring locums or getting someone to fill in.

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