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  • #16
    I suppose that if the bonus is definitely unobtainable, I would consider hitting the bare minimum $$ generated required by contract. Just say "if you're not going to let me reasonably hit a bonus, I'll ease back into work by leaving at 2pm every day" or something similar.

    Comment


    • #17
      They are not paying me when I'm out. That's the point

      Comment


      • #18
        I can see your employer requiring you meet the same productivity standard to get a bonus as if you didn't miss any time.  However, what your post implies is that not only would you not get a bonus during the time you weren't working, but that once you come back, you are not eligible for a bonus until a higher level of productivity than previously stipulated.  If this is correct, then this would be a breach of contract on your employer' part.  I think it is absolutely essential to know what exactly your contract says regarding how your bonus is calculated.

        Comment


        • #19




          They are not paying me when I’m out. That’s the point
          Click to expand...


          I'm still confused. Once again, if I'm understanding you correctly, some is PTO.  It sounds like the way the system works every time you take PTO, you're making up the deficit there.  It's just a short time so it's probably not that noticeable.  Clearly the PTO money comes from your employer, so they're paying for that (as the always do).

          The rest comes from the short term disability?  Once again, if I'm understanding you correctly it comes from premiums that are paid by your employer.

          If they truly were giving you no income when you're out and didn't pay any premiums for disability, then I guess I would get where you're coming from.

          Also, realize that actually buying a short term disability policy to cover things like this is actually more expensive than it would be if they just paid you the salary directly (if that was not the case, then the insurer would be losing money).  The reason they must buy the policy is because it turns an unpredictable potentially massive expense (if several employees go out simultaneously) and turns into a regular predictable one.  But make no mistake, they are paying your salary when you are out (for that part), it's not as direct as you are accustomed to, so perhaps that's why you may be disregarding it.

          I'm still not 100% sure if I'm interpreting everything correctly, but so far, all I see here at worst is that you may have negotiated a poor deal.  But I'm not even sure of that.

          Comment


          • #20




            I can see your employer requiring you meet the same productivity standard to get a bonus as if you didn’t miss any time.  However, what your post implies is that not only would you not get a bonus during the time you weren’t working, but that once you come back, you are not eligible for a bonus until a higher level of productivity than previously stipulated.  If this is correct, then this would be a breach of contract on your employer’ part.  I think it is absolutely essential to know what exactly your contract says regarding how your bonus is calculated.
            Click to expand...


            I don't think it's that (bolded).  The employer is just saying that she has to meet the same productivity standard as if she wasn't out.  She is saying that because of that stipulation and the amount of time she is out, it will take her a long time to get a bonus again.  She believes that some sort of accommodation/adjustment should be made to the productivity standard because she is out.  That seems like something that could have been negotiated better perhaps and of course depends on the precise language of the contract.  But I don't think the employer is doing anything egregious.  At worst, I'd say its an unfavorable deal.

            Standard disclaimer applies.

             

            Comment


            • #21







              They are not paying me when I’m out. That’s the point
              Click to expand…


              I’m still confused. Once again, if I’m understanding you correctly, some is PTO.  It sounds like the way the system works every time you take PTO, you’re making up the deficit there.  It’s just a short time so it’s probably not that noticeable.  Clearly the PTO money comes from your employer, so they’re paying for that (as the always do).

              The rest comes from the short term disability?  Once again, if I’m understanding you correctly it comes from premiums that are paid by your employer.

              If they truly were giving you no income when you’re out and didn’t pay any premiums for disability, then I guess I would get where you’re coming from.

              Also, realize that actually buying a short term disability policy to cover things like this is actually more expensive than it would be if they just paid you the salary directly (if that was not the case, then the insurer would be losing money).  The reason they must buy the policy is because it turns an unpredictable potentially massive expense (if several employees go out simultaneously) and turns into a regular predictable one.  But make no mistake, they are paying your salary when you are out (for that part), it’s not as direct as you are accustomed to, so perhaps that’s why you may be disregarding it.

              I’m still not 100% sure if I’m interpreting everything correctly, but so far, all I see here at worst is that you may have negotiated a poor deal.  But I’m not even sure of that.
              Click to expand...


              I'm not sure how her employer calculates the required RVUs for base and incentive. But my employer takes our PTO into account when making the calculation so we are NOT expected to "make up the deficit" when we take time off. We literally get paid for not doing any work.

              The short term disability premium is paid for EVERY employee because it's a benefit to everyone and they pay it regardless of whether that employee uses it. So the amount they spent on her individually for the premiums is significantly less than what they would pay in her salary while she was out on leave. So why should she have to work hours that the employer never paid her for? And I don't see how legally they could try and recoup the cost of the premiums paid out for the employees that actually used the policy. That would be discrimination, right? It makes no difference to the employer when an employee uses it because the payout comes from the disability insurer, not the employer.

              Again, if she were to leave the position after the maternity leave was up, could her employer sue her for the income she was given during that time since she did not work? I think the answer is no and if that's the case, why would she have to make up the time if she returns?

              Ultimately, I'd absolutely sit down with a lawyer and hash this all out but seriously I've never heard of an employer making any employee make up the hours they missed while on sick leave. And I help my patients get qualified for FMLA like several times a week, so I feel like I've been exposed to a lot of different employer policies. I'd love to hear the ultimate outcome, Bonnie, if you don't mind sharing . . . once this is sorted out. I'm sorry about all the stress this is probably causing you in the meantime.

               

              Comment


              • #22










                They are not paying me when I’m out. That’s the point
                Click to expand…


                I’m still confused. Once again, if I’m understanding you correctly, some is PTO.  It sounds like the way the system works every time you take PTO, you’re making up the deficit there.  It’s just a short time so it’s probably not that noticeable.  Clearly the PTO money comes from your employer, so they’re paying for that (as the always do).

                The rest comes from the short term disability?  Once again, if I’m understanding you correctly it comes from premiums that are paid by your employer.

                If they truly were giving you no income when you’re out and didn’t pay any premiums for disability, then I guess I would get where you’re coming from.

                Also, realize that actually buying a short term disability policy to cover things like this is actually more expensive than it would be if they just paid you the salary directly (if that was not the case, then the insurer would be losing money).  The reason they must buy the policy is because it turns an unpredictable potentially massive expense (if several employees go out simultaneously) and turns into a regular predictable one.  But make no mistake, they are paying your salary when you are out (for that part), it’s not as direct as you are accustomed to, so perhaps that’s why you may be disregarding it.

                I’m still not 100% sure if I’m interpreting everything correctly, but so far, all I see here at worst is that you may have negotiated a poor deal.  But I’m not even sure of that.
                Click to expand…


                I’m not sure how her employer calculates the required RVUs for base and incentive. But my employer takes our PTO into account when making the calculation so we are NOT expected to “make up the deficit” when we take time off. We literally get paid for not doing any work.

                The short term disability premium is paid for EVERY employee because it’s a benefit to everyone and they pay it regardless of whether that employee uses it. So the amount they spent on her individually for the premiums is significantly less than what they would pay in her salary while she was out on leave. So why should she have to work hours that the employer never paid her for? And I don’t see how legally they could try and recoup the cost of the premiums paid out for the employees that actually used the policy. That would be discrimination, right? It makes no difference to the employer when an employee uses it because the payout comes from the disability insurer, not the employer.

                Again, if she were to leave the position after the maternity leave was up, could her employer sue her for the income she was given during that time since she did not work? I think the answer is no and if that’s the case, why would she have to make up the time if she returns?

                Ultimately, I’d absolutely sit down with a lawyer and hash this all out but seriously I’ve never heard of an employer making any employee make up the hours they missed while on sick leave. And I help my patients get qualified for FMLA like several times a week, so I feel like I’ve been exposed to a lot of different employer policies. I’d love to hear the ultimate outcome, Bonnie, if you don’t mind sharing . . . once this is sorted out. I’m sorry about all the stress this is probably causing you in the meantime.

                 
                Click to expand...


                Once, again, all of the following assumes I'm understanding this correctly.

                1. When I said "make up the deficit", what I meant was that there is no adjustment to the bonus threshold. If she takes a week off, she has one less week to hit the bonus threshold.  It sounds like she is so far over the threshold that a week or two of vacation will never take her under the bonus.  There is no literal making up of hours.

                2. I don't want to get into a long derail about the mechanics of group short-term disability policies.  The simplest way is to think of the employer as a black box that simply says when you go out on short-term disability, we will pay your salary.  From the employee's perspective it doesn't matter how they come up  with the money. That's the employer's problem. They could just self insure and pay out as needed (very large groups can afford to do this) or they can buy a group policy.  It doesn't matter how they choose to do it, they're paying for it.  Why should the employee's expectation be different based on how exactly the employer obtained the money?

                3. Like I said, this is super unclear, but describing this as the employer making the employee make up the hours they missed seems really weird to me.  No one is forcing her to work extra hours and her base is guaranteed.  Yeah, it's harder for her to hit the bonus than if she was not out for 12 wks.  But it sounds like even she agrees it should be a little harder (based on comments on understanding that there is overhead to be covered).  So it seems like the only point of disagreement is how much harder exactly it should be.  So at worst, it's a poorly negotiated contract.  I'd be very surprised if she had any sort of legal claim (obviously depends on what the contract says), but I too am interested in how this turns out.  Although, I'm still not quite sure I understand exactly what the problem is.

                 

                Comment


                • #23
                  Has anyone in the department used the short term disability and FMLA before?  How was their bonus effected?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Typically depends on how it is worded for the 'base guarantee' or 'bonus' - you may need to still cross the threshold for the bonus, so the maternity leave would hinder your ability to earn a bonus...OR if there is no GUARANTEE it may be a little different structure.  You may need to lower your 'draw' - again depending on all how it is worded.  If you'd like to speak to someone here just let us know - you have our info!  - Jon w CDx

                     

                    ps. for the record - we have seen 'paid' maternity leave 2 times in over 4,500 contract reviews.  Not to rub it in but my wife (real estate exec) had 15 weeks of fully paid...then she bridged back remaining fully paid for the next 4 weeks.  Crazy.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      if you don't work (iow, while gone on leave), does someone else have to cover patients?  in other words, they will receive a bonus for work that you would normally be doing if you were there?  from an employer perspective, that converts work that would be normally covered by salary(for you) into bonus for someone else.  is it a salary or a draw?

                      i understand why you don't like it, but i don't see it as clearly unfair.  just one way of doing business, as long as equally applied.  it seems just like part of the benefits package.

                      i would be cautious about the suggestion to just leave early.  coming off an (understandable) absence of 3 months, leaving early is not going to be popular with  your colleagues or your employer.  depending on the specifics of your specialty of course.  and going forward you potentially have the issue of leaving early for doctors appointments, sick days, etc.

                       

                      congratulations by the way.



                       

                       

                      Comment


                      • #26








                        I can see your employer requiring you meet the same productivity standard to get a bonus as if you didn’t miss any time.  However, what your post implies is that not only would you not get a bonus during the time you weren’t working, but that once you come back, you are not eligible for a bonus until a higher level of productivity than previously stipulated.  If this is correct, then this would be a breach of contract on your employer’ part.  I think it is absolutely essential to know what exactly your contract says regarding how your bonus is calculated.
                        Click to expand…


                        I don’t think it’s that (bolded).  The employer is just saying that she has to meet the same productivity standard as if she wasn’t out.  She is saying that because of that stipulation and the amount of time she is out, it will take her a long time to get a bonus again.  She believes that some sort of accommodation/adjustment should be made to the productivity standard because she is out.  That seems like something that could have been negotiated better perhaps and of course depends on the precise language of the contract.  But I don’t think the employer is doing anything egregious.  At worst, I’d say its an unfavorable deal.

                        Standard disclaimer applies.

                         
                        Click to expand...


                        I'm not sure if you're interpreting things correctly either, so let me try to be more clear: I'll put down some #s for illustration purposes too.

                        Let's just say my leave fits exactly into Oct, Nov, Dec and I deliver exactly on Oct 1:

                        Oct: this month is paid by the STD plan paid by my hospital

                        Nov: 1/2 month is STD, the second 1/2 is my saved PTO

                        Dec: I am UNPAID. And I actually have to send a check to pay for my insurances (health, dental, etc).

                        I get that PTO should be counted as "time" that counts towards my base threshold. The question is:

                        -does STD count?

                        -does UNPAID time count? (this is the part I don't understand.....sure charge me OH, which would be 25K, not 50K)

                        Another illustration:

                        Let's say I need to bring in 50K a month to "make my base salary" of $300K per 12 month period  = $600K total collections to cover my base + overhead - I made them 50/50 for illustration purposes.

                        Oct, Nov, Dec = 150K I need to bring in. They are saying I need to STILL make up thus 150K, even tho I am UNPAID for Dec. Now, is it clear why I am pissed? If they were paying my base salary during Dec, I totally agree with you - I'm still responsible for bringing in that 50K at some point.

                        The incentive kicks in if I bring in more than 150K per quarter.

                         

                         

                        Comment


                        • #27




                          if you don’t work (iow, while gone on leave), does someone else have to cover patients?  in other words, they will receive a bonus for work that you would normally be doing if you were there?  from an employer perspective, that converts work that would be normally covered by salary(for you) into bonus for someone else.  is it a salary or a draw?

                          i understand why you don’t like it, but i don’t see it as clearly unfair.  just one way of doing business, as long as equally applied.  it seems just like part of the benefits package.

                          i would be cautious about the suggestion to just leave early.  coming off an (understandable) absence of 3 months, leaving early is not going to be popular with  your colleagues or your employer.  depending on the specifics of your specialty of course.  and going forward you potentially have the issue of leaving early for doctors appointments, sick days, etc.

                           

                          congratulations by the way.

                          ????

                           

                           
                          Click to expand...


                          That is a good point. Yes if other colleagues see more patients and bonus because of it. But again, they aren't paying me....(except 2 weeks PTO)

                          I've talked to some other ladies and it seems like some employers do it like mine, and some actually DO adjust the threshold and remove the part you are out and unpaid by them....

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Bonnie I know you do not want to hear it but it looks like you will have to forego a bonus.  Academics offer you paid maternity leave which is a blessing.  If you owned a derm practice not only would you miss income from not seeing patients but you would still have to pay your overhead.  No set up is perfect. You just need to understand your benefits and make the most of them. Docs in groups still have to pay for their share of the overhead if they are unproductive for any reason.  If you open your own practice you can set the rules.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I have read through the thread, and I believe I understand the issue as presented. There are two things that I might offer that potentially, partially explain the department's position.

                              1. While the hospital guarantees the 6 week paid maternity leave, it is possible that your department gets charged for it in some fashion. The money for the leave comes from somewhere (someone, somewhere has to earn it and pay it out), and in this scenario, it might indirectly be you!

                              2. Your office expenses, some of them, continue whether you are there or not. Nurses, clerical people, coders are not getting furloughed because you are on leave. The office space will still be cooled when it is warm and warmed when it is cool. The landlord (the hospital, in this case as it appears), still expects its check at the end of the month.

                              In my private practice group of 13 we are constantly struggling to craft and maintain a fair policy for leave, for maternity, illness, elective surgery, family emergencies, etc. Just when we think it is solved, we are presented with a situation that we are not prepared to handle or does not fit the policy.

                              In a fantasy world, everyone at some point will need unexpected or planned time off, and over the course of one's career, it balances out. In the real world, a few people take the lion's share of the leave, and a few take virtually none and resent those who do. The ideal policy would allow people to, without guilt, take necessary leave while not hosing the people who are having to suck it up with extra shifts, additional weekend work, and more stress.

                              Comment


                              • #30




                                Bonnie I know you do not want to hear it but it looks like you will have to forego a bonus.  Academics offer you paid maternity leave which is a blessing.  If you owned a derm practice not only would you miss income from not seeing patients but you would still have to pay your overhead.  No set up is perfect. You just need to understand your benefits and make the most of them. Docs in groups still have to pay for their share of the overhead if they are unproductive for any reason.  If you open your own practice you can set the rules.
                                Click to expand...


                                i'd be fine paying OH while I am out but they are making me pay back my pay + OH  (pay that I am not getting - the STD paying me is not the dept paying - I file a claim with a company etc). They can remove the 2 weeks PTO they are paying me - so how is it fair that during my 4 weeks of UNPAID leave I have to pay back my salary + OH?

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