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  • #31
    There are a lot of females in my group (hospitalists).  Most of them are mothers and have husbands who are not physicians.  Interestingly, at least 3 of them I know have husbands who are engineers.  I've never asked them specifically about their relationship dynamics, but from spending time with them in the office I pick up on some things.  I know their husbands travel a lot for work, so often they are required to deal with the kids solo when they are out of town.  Most of them are full time employees, but they do seem to be the more involved/in charge person when it comes to the kids.  They are often on the phone with their SO at work answering questions about this or that thing the kids need to do, etc.  There's one girl in my group, however, who's husband is a cardiologist.  They are a very traditional, conservative, Indian, muslim family and the wife, even though she works full time, is expected to do ALL of the household duties still including cooking, cleaning, taking care of kids, dealing with the in-laws (who live with them).  It's pretty much BS in my opinion and kind of pisses me off that she has such a lazy husband who gets to focus on just his job and leaves his wife to do double duty with home life and her own career.  But, I keep my mouth shut because it's none of my business and they have their own cultural and religious reasons for doing it that way.  It's an extreme example, especially in this day and age.

    As for my wife and I, she is not a physician, but has an equally demanding job as a manager of the education department at our local zoo.  We don't have kids, but if we do, she's looking forward to cutting back and staying home a lot.  Most of our relationship stress simply comes from the fact that we find it hard to make time for one another right now since we both work so much and often have crazy hours.  We split household duties.  I'm the maintenance guy, finance manager, often times grocery shopper, sometimes cook.  She takes care of the laundry and most of the cleaning (she's kind of a neat freak, so I can't really compete with her on these tasks anyway).  We both take care of the dog depending on whoever is actually home.  I take care of our backyard chickens too.

    Since her job pays so much less than mine and she's not really that passionate about the work anymore, she's considering either quitting or going part time in January, so we can focus on starting a family and enjoying life a little more.  We both feel fortunate that we have that option since I'm easily able to make enough for the two of us.  But, I would support her in whatever she wanted to do.

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    • #32
      Interesting about docs married to engineers- add me to that tally! My husband and I both work full time. He doesn't love his job and I've wondered whether he would want to stay at home especially if we have more kids (one currently) but it's certainly not something I'm going to push b/c I don't want him to resent me for it if he ends up not liking it. Thankfully, he works M-F 8-5 and does not travel which is the only way we can do traditional daycare instead of a nanny/au pair with my crazy schedule. He has no issues whatsoever with making less than me. The only way it works is to approach it as a team, and as others have said- everything is our money rather than mine or his. (The exception: when I won our fantasy football league, for which he is the commissioner- I made him go to the ATM to withdraw money from our joint checking account to pay me my winnings in cash)

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      • #33


        I take care of our backyard chickens too.
        Click to expand...


        Cool to see someone else with backyard chickens! (Definitely a man's job lolol)
        Our passion is protecting clients and others from predatory advisors. Fox & Co CPAs, Fox & Co Wealth Mgmt. 270-247-6087

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        • #34
          My wife is a Surgical Oncologist and I am in Finance.  We had two kids together in residency and fellowship. To make it work though I've always had to be the one to have a flexible schedule.  I can get my work done at night or early morning but I do school drop-offs, take the kids to their activities, and try and take care of cleaning the house, grocery shopping and I got pretty good at cooking while my wife was in training.  I decided to work for myself so that I would have the flexibility for my family.

          It also helps that my in-laws live near by and give us a great support system with our children.  If I have client meetings when my 5 year old has tennis lessons, they are available to help out.  Neither of us could do it without them.

           

          We have several friends who are female surgeons as well and I would say 50% are stay at home dad's, 25% have more flexible work arrangements, and the other 25% are other physicians.

           

           

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          • #35





            I take care of our backyard chickens too. 
            Click to expand…


            Cool to see someone else with backyard chickens! (Definitely a man’s job lolol)
            Click to expand...


            Haha, yeah, I guess there are probably a lot of women that would turn their noses at taking care of chickens.  Funny thing is my wife grew up on a horse farm, so taking care of chickens (and just about any other farm animal) wouldn't bother her in the least.  But, since I'm the one that started it as a hobby, the chores fall to me.

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            • #36




              (The exception: when I won our fantasy football league, for which he is the commissioner- I made him go to the ATM to withdraw money from our joint checking account to pay me my winnings in cash)
              Click to expand...


              ALWAYS get fantasy winnings paid in CASH.

              In a similar vein, I like to try to make cash bets with my wife, and she really, really hates it, even though it's all community property.   :lol:

              Comment


              • #37








                I take care of our backyard chickens too. 
                Click to expand…


                Cool to see someone else with backyard chickens! (Definitely a man’s job lolol)
                Click to expand…


                Haha, yeah, I guess there are probably a lot of women that would turn their noses at taking care of chickens.  Funny thing is my wife grew up on a horse farm, so taking care of chickens (and just about any other farm animal) wouldn’t bother her in the least.  But, since I’m the one that started it as a hobby, the chores fall to me.
                Click to expand...


                I wouldn't turn my nose up - i love collecting eggs and everybody in the office loves getting them - but I could never kill a chicken. At least I don't think I could.
                Our passion is protecting clients and others from predatory advisors. Fox & Co CPAs, Fox & Co Wealth Mgmt. 270-247-6087

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                • #38











                  I take care of our backyard chickens too. 
                  Click to expand…


                  Cool to see someone else with backyard chickens! (Definitely a man’s job lolol)
                  Click to expand…


                  Haha, yeah, I guess there are probably a lot of women that would turn their noses at taking care of chickens.  Funny thing is my wife grew up on a horse farm, so taking care of chickens (and just about any other farm animal) wouldn’t bother her in the least.  But, since I’m the one that started it as a hobby, the chores fall to me.
                  Click to expand…


                  I wouldn’t turn my nose up – i love collecting eggs and everybody in the office loves getting them – but I could never kill a chicken. At least I don’t think I could.
                  Click to expand...


                  I've had to kill a few myself.  It's not pleasant, but I figure, if I'm willing to eat chicken burritos, I better be okay with killing my own chickens.  I won't clean my own chickens though.  I'd gladly pay someone skilled to do that part for me (mostly because I'd be afraid of contaminating the meat since I don't know what I'm doing).

                  Sorry for hijacking the thread...back to spouses/relationships now

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    We are both physicians (recently out of training), and both did engineering undergrad degrees. Wife is just about to start post-fellowship job with salary 2x mine.
                    We are both working full time ($500k combined in student loans has something to do with it). Have 3 little kids. We chose specifically outpatient jobs 8-5 or 8-4pm with no-weekends, no-call (no way can loosing time away from family make call worth it). This job setup helps a lot too.

                    Its difficult to do it all and not burn out. So we have my in-laws living near by that help daily, have an AuPair, cleaning company (this was the biggest help for both of us and wife loves that house looks good). We then focus on our jobs, saving for the future, paying off debt, and after work/weekends being our family unit.

                    Try to have things even for childcare, but she still ends up doing more child care. I do all the housecleaning when needed (bathrooms, floors, dishes, etc).

                    We save time shopping by doing online ordering from our grocery store (costs $5, they load it in your car, and keeps past orders in place making re-ordering quick). Actually, we do most of purchases online these days and this also helps free up time to do what we want.

                    Comment


                    • #40




                      On the flip side, if you are doing a cushy residency like derm, there is no better time for babies. (your co-residents may hate you of course)

                      Our PD had to threaten to hold residents back as they were planning on a pregnancy in their pgy2 and PGY4 years

                      The neighboring residency program just decided that any pregnancy and they would hold the resident back an entire year to discourage this kind of behavior.
                      Click to expand...


                      Is that even legal?
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                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I am sure I have a very different arrangement than most so I will share to show that you can make it work. I am a female who is an urologist, my husband is an assistant basketball coach at a Div I Big East school. We maintain 2 households in 2 states. Our jobs are on different ends of the cultural spectrum but that's what keeps it interesting. We have 3 kids, 1 in college, 2 younger and still in school. Given my schedule, most household duties are outsourced. I enjoy grocery shopping ( I am weird, I know) so that is the one job I do on a weekly basis. Kids were all born during med school and residency. I disagree that it is easier to have kids later. Yes we had less money earlier in our careers, but we made it work. As I aged, it was more difficult physically to be pregnant than professionally. I am glad I had children in my 30's. We manage as co CEO's of our world and I am the CFO. We commute between the 2 households at least twice a month. The only regret I have is that living this type of fast paced lifestyle makes you realize how quickly life can pass you by. Sending my eldest to college was a wake up call to my own youth. My husband enjoys his job and will continue as long as possible. I love my job but can see my world shifting to a culture I am not sure I want to be part of much longer. Thanks to this site and others, I am on target to "retire" from medicine in the next 5 years.

                        Comment


                        • #42







                          On the flip side, if you are doing a cushy residency like derm, there is no better time for babies. (your co-residents may hate you of course)

                          Our PD had to threaten to hold residents back as they were planning on a pregnancy in their pgy2 and PGY4 years

                          The neighboring residency program just decided that any pregnancy and they would hold the resident back an entire year to discourage this kind of behavior.
                          Click to expand…


                          Is that even legal?
                          Click to expand...


                          I can't imagine it is. But I've heard plenty of credible stories of things like this happening. We are certainly able to navigate resident pregnancy in our program and it's never been a huge deal. We love having the cute babies at graduation!

                          While I feel for these residents being told they aren't allowed to have kids, I do see it from the program side. I am not defending the practice but in some cases I think it's one of those things with absolutely no good resolution.

                          So when I heard about this happening it was in a relatively small Ob program (not at my current institution or my former one BTW just to cover my bases but I was familiar with it). Think like 4-6 residents/year. You have a busy service and need residents to cover L+D, gyne, gyn-onc, uro-gyn, MFM, and all those clinics. The issue the PD was having was that one resident was pregnant and 2 others were trying. At some point they have 3 residents out of commission in a program with only 15-20 residents. That's a big deal and introduces issues like work hour violations for the other residents who have to cover more frequent calls. Then when those residents get back it's very difficult for their colleagues to get paid back as it were and it leads to all sorts of bad blood. We usually cobble together electives and vacation to create a nice leave that won't extend training, but EM is way more progressive than other specialties on this. Again, I am not endorsing this PD's behavior just noting that they likely had almost no good options.

                          The reality is that when things like this happen the attending staff should just shoulder more of the load. The problem is in academics many docs view their whole deal as not having to do stuff w/o residents and are simply unwilling to do so. It's a problem that's nearly impossible to solve.

                          Comment


                          • #43










                            On the flip side, if you are doing a cushy residency like derm, there is no better time for babies. (your co-residents may hate you of course)

                            Our PD had to threaten to hold residents back as they were planning on a pregnancy in their pgy2 and PGY4 years

                            The neighboring residency program just decided that any pregnancy and they would hold the resident back an entire year to discourage this kind of behavior.
                            Click to expand…


                            Is that even legal?
                            Click to expand…


                            I can’t imagine it is. But I’ve heard plenty of credible stories of things like this happening. We are certainly able to navigate resident pregnancy in our program and it’s never been a huge deal. We love having the cute babies at graduation!

                            While I feel for these residents being told they aren’t allowed to have kids, I do see it from the program side. I am not defending the practice but in some cases I think it’s one of those things with absolutely no good resolution.

                            So when I heard about this happening it was in a relatively small Ob program (not at my current institution or my former one BTW just to cover my bases but I was familiar with it). Think like 4-6 residents/year. You have a busy service and need residents to cover L+D, gyne, gyn-onc, uro-gyn, MFM, and all those clinics. The issue the PD was having was that one resident was pregnant and 2 others were trying. At some point they have 3 residents out of commission in a program with only 15-20 residents. That’s a big deal and introduces issues like work hour violations for the other residents who have to cover more frequent calls. Then when those residents get back it’s very difficult for their colleagues to get paid back as it were and it leads to all sorts of bad blood. We usually cobble together electives and vacation to create a nice leave that won’t extend training, but EM is way more progressive than other specialties on this. Again, I am not endorsing this PD’s behavior just noting that they likely had almost no good options.

                            The reality is that when things like this happen the attending staff should just shoulder more of the load. The problem is in academics many docs view their whole deal as not having to do stuff w/o residents and are simply unwilling to do so. It’s a problem that’s nearly impossible to solve.
                            Click to expand...


                            A rule like that is certainly not legal on its face and is dangerous from a liability standpoint. However, as was noted years ago here, there are actually rules as to how many weeks of residency one has to be present (and that makes sense) to actually graduate, and you certainly can be held longer if you dont hit that. Someone at my program nearly didnt make it on schedule due to pregnancy and an injury.

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                            • #44










                              On the flip side, if you are doing a cushy residency like derm, there is no better time for babies. (your co-residents may hate you of course)

                              Our PD had to threaten to hold residents back as they were planning on a pregnancy in their pgy2 and PGY4 years

                              The neighboring residency program just decided that any pregnancy and they would hold the resident back an entire year to discourage this kind of behavior.
                              Click to expand…


                              Is that even legal?
                              Click to expand…


                              I can’t imagine it is. But I’ve heard plenty of credible stories of things like this happening. We are certainly able to navigate resident pregnancy in our program and it’s never been a huge deal. We love having the cute babies at graduation!

                              While I feel for these residents being told they aren’t allowed to have kids, I do see it from the program side. I am not defending the practice but in some cases I think it’s one of those things with absolutely no good resolution.

                              So when I heard about this happening it was in a relatively small Ob program (not at my current institution or my former one BTW just to cover my bases but I was familiar with it). Think like 4-6 residents/year. You have a busy service and need residents to cover L+D, gyne, gyn-onc, uro-gyn, MFM, and all those clinics. The issue the PD was having was that one resident was pregnant and 2 others were trying. At some point they have 3 residents out of commission in a program with only 15-20 residents. That’s a big deal and introduces issues like work hour violations for the other residents who have to cover more frequent calls. Then when those residents get back it’s very difficult for their colleagues to get paid back as it were and it leads to all sorts of bad blood. We usually cobble together electives and vacation to create a nice leave that won’t extend training, but EM is way more progressive than other specialties on this. Again, I am not endorsing this PD’s behavior just noting that they likely had almost no good options.

                              The reality is that when things like this happen the attending staff should just shoulder more of the load. The problem is in academics many docs view their whole deal as not having to do stuff w/o residents and are simply unwilling to do so. It’s a problem that’s nearly impossible to solve.
                              Click to expand...


                              Oh I understand WHY someone would think about making a rule like that. My question was purely about the legality of doing so. We know every time we hire a female doc or PA just out of training that we're going to be covering 1-2 ~3 month maternity periods in the next 2-5 years that we wouldn't be covering for a male doc. We view it as worth it to have women in the group (plus it doubles the number of high quality docs/PAs available to us) but I fully get why someone would think about a rule like that.
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                              • #45
                                Forcing a female resident who took pregnancy leave to do additional training above and beyond the duration of the leave as punishment for having a baby is begging for an EEOC complaint for discrimination.

                                What is much harder to protect against is subjective downgrading of female residents who have kids in the eyes of their evaluators. I know women who did residencies and fellowships at prestigious programs, and they were told by fellow residents right away that having a kid during residency was a guarantee for "meh" letters of recommendation and 0 career support from senior faculty. Leaves a bad taste in the mouth, but impossible to prove.

                                A big part of the problem is the attitude of attendings that pregnancy leave is somehow an affront to the sanctity of medicine. Having a resident on pregnancy leave is no different than having a resident out because of a torn ACL, or because dad is dying of cancer, or died in a car accident, or because their embassy failed to renew their visa in time due to a terrorist attack and the resident couldn't travel back to the US when they planned to. All those things took residents off rotation during my training, and faculty and residents alike stepped in without saying boo.

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