In search of women.....

[portlandia]

Anne wrote:

portlandia wrote:

Anne wrote:

I feel like I somehow stumbled on breitbart rather than WCI forums.

Could it be that women just don’t like math and physics and would rather just talk about their feelings? And that men just love crunching numbers and lifting heavy things? And these are just intrinsic differences within our DNA? Hmmm…could be.

Or could it be that young girls are more likely to be encouraged to play nicely with their dolls while young boys are encouraged to get in the dirt? And if a teenage girl excels in AP physics and calculus she gets a different reaction than a boy in the same class, while if a teenage boy says he wants to be a nurse or a kindergarten teacher he gets a different reaction than his female peer who says the same. Can a teenager ignore those reactions and follow their dreams? Sure, but I know I was influenced much more by the reactions of others as a teenager than I am today, and based on my experience with many other young people, the young developing brain is easily influenced by what other people think.  It takes a while to learn the art of not caring what others think….

Likely, as in most things in life, both nature and nurture play a role.

Interesting how people get so fired up about this topic.

The most bothersome thing to me is when people say that someone just got in to med school/residency/whatever job because of their race or gender. I rarely (if ever) have thought that was the case. On the contrary, the people I have met who are from an underrepresented demographic segment are often more talented and had to work extra hard for that talent to be appreciated due to the underlying (often unconscious) biases they have been up against.

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Is your argument that the observable differences in men and women are based solely on socialization? All nurture, no nature? Do you have some scientific evidence to back this claim or strictly anectodes?

How do you explain the gender specific differences in toy preferences, rough and tumble play, peer preferences and infant interest among males and females? Did I mention I am referring to rhesus monkeys and that these differences parallel the differences seen in humans?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

Would your argument be that rhesus monkeys socialize the girl monkeys different than the boy monkeys?

Click to expand…

Did you read the part where I said that “likely, as in most thing in life, both nature and nurture play a role?”

Brings to mind the research that demonstrates that women tend to be more detail oriented than men.

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No, I missed that.    And I agree that research shows that there are sex differences in detail orientation that my mistake exemplifies.

I would like to see the research that shows that a significant part of the reason that sex differences in occupation persist is due to socialization. I don't see it.

For example, the literature demonstrates that, on average, men are better at spatial ability than women and have greater interest in things. Could these variables not account in large part for the greater percentage of male engineers? Socialization is doing everything it can to encourage more women to get into engineering including female only scholarships, mentors and clubs as well as preferential hiring by engineering firms and academia. These are easily verifiable instances of overtly "pro female socialization", yet the imbalance persists.

[Anne]

beagler wrote:

Anne wrote:

beagler wrote:

Anne wrote:

I feel like I somehow stumbled on breitbart rather than WCI forums.

Could it be that women just don’t like math and physics and would rather just talk about their feelings? And that men just love crunching numbers and lifting heavy things? And these are just intrinsic differences within our DNA? Hmmm…could be.

Or could it be that young girls are more likely to be encouraged to play nicely with their dolls while young boys are encouraged to get in the dirt? And if a teenage girl excels in AP physics and calculus she gets a different reaction than a boy in the same class, while if a teenage boy says he wants to be a nurse or a kindergarten teacher he gets a different reaction than his female peer who says the same. Can a teenager ignore those reactions and follow their dreams? Sure, but I know I was influenced much more by the reactions of others as a teenager than I am today, and based on my experience with many other young people, the young developing brain is easily influenced by what other people think.  It takes a while to learn the art of not caring what others think….

Likely, as in most things in life, both nature and nurture play a role.

Interesting how people get so fired up about this topic.

The most bothersome thing to me is when people say that someone just got in to med school/residency/whatever job because of their race or gender. I rarely (if ever) have thought that was the case. On the contrary, the people I have met who are from an underrepresented demographic segment are often more talented and had to work extra hard for that talent to be appreciated due to the underlying (often unconscious) biases they have been up against.

Click to expand…

We all like our classmates and they are all hardworking. Best people I’ve ever met.

But you didn’t meet those who were actively denied a spot to make room. You might have been equally impressed by their hard work. You might have lamented how they were unjustly denied a spot to make room and missed out on their dream of med school.

Affirmtive action is not free, there is a cost. Is it worth it? Well everyone here got in, so easy for us to say yes.

How would you feel if your children are going to have to do better than everyone else to be assured the same chances?

 

 

Click to expand…

Do you really think that highly qualified white males are being denied a seat at the table so that underperforming women and minority men can be there?  If you do, fine, you can hold that opinion, and we’ll just have to agree to disagree.  Please first scan Congress/the board of your local hospital/the speakers at your last CME conference before finalizing your decision.

Your last sentence is exactly what my last sentence is saying, but from a different point of view.  I know plenty of minority women who felt that they had to work harder/get better grades/do more research/smile more/work on their dialect and mannerisms/etc. just to be taken seriously.

Click to expand…

For Asians applying to top colleges and med schools I’d say absolutely yes, being denied spots.

I absolutely know my kids will have to do better than perhaps yours to have equal chances. Try to place yourself in my shoes—how would that make you feel if you had to say the same about your children?

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Actually wouldn't bother me.  As I said from the beginning, I think that many segments of the population are not on an even playing field from the start...e.g. Blacks and Hispanics are much more likely to grow up impoverished than Whites or Asians...does that make it harder to go to college and med school?  I would certainly think so.  If you grow up that way are you more likely to advocate for others in those conditions if you do make it to a better socioeconomic position?  Again, I think so.  Is it a win-win for everyone if we can improve socioeconomic equality amongst all demographic groups in this country?  Once again, I think so.  But you may not agree with all of those tenets, which of course is your right to have a differing opinion.

[portlandia]

Anne wrote:

beagler wrote:

Anne wrote:

I feel like I somehow stumbled on breitbart rather than WCI forums.

Could it be that women just don’t like math and physics and would rather just talk about their feelings? And that men just love crunching numbers and lifting heavy things? And these are just intrinsic differences within our DNA? Hmmm…could be.

Or could it be that young girls are more likely to be encouraged to play nicely with their dolls while young boys are encouraged to get in the dirt? And if a teenage girl excels in AP physics and calculus she gets a different reaction than a boy in the same class, while if a teenage boy says he wants to be a nurse or a kindergarten teacher he gets a different reaction than his female peer who says the same. Can a teenager ignore those reactions and follow their dreams? Sure, but I know I was influenced much more by the reactions of others as a teenager than I am today, and based on my experience with many other young people, the young developing brain is easily influenced by what other people think.  It takes a while to learn the art of not caring what others think….

Likely, as in most things in life, both nature and nurture play a role.

Interesting how people get so fired up about this topic.

The most bothersome thing to me is when people say that someone just got in to med school/residency/whatever job because of their race or gender. I rarely (if ever) have thought that was the case. On the contrary, the people I have met who are from an underrepresented demographic segment are often more talented and had to work extra hard for that talent to be appreciated due to the underlying (often unconscious) biases they have been up against.

Click to expand…

We all like our classmates and they are all hardworking. Best people I’ve ever met.

But you didn’t meet those who were actively denied a spot to make room. You might have been equally impressed by their hard work. You might have lamented how they were unjustly denied a spot to make room and missed out on their dream of med school.

Affirmtive action is not free, there is a cost. Is it worth it? Well everyone here got in, so easy for us to say yes.

How would you feel if your children are going to have to do better than everyone else to be assured the same chances?

 

 

Click to expand…

Do you really think that highly qualified white males are being denied a seat at the table so that underperforming women and minority men can be there?  If you do, fine, you can hold that opinion, and we’ll just have to agree to disagree.  Please first scan Congress/the board of your local hospital/the speakers at your last CME conference before finalizing your decision.

Your last sentence is exactly what my last sentence is saying, but from a different point of view.  I know plenty of minority women who felt that they had to work harder/get better grades/do more research/smile more/work on their dialect and mannerisms/etc. just to be taken seriously.

Click to expand...

Anne,

It is not opinion to state the fact that certain races are being discriminated against in favor of other races in education and employment.

Please look up the Princeton study showing certain races getting a "bonus" added to their SAT scores for college admission while another race (Asians) get penalized.

One can make the argument that this sort of racial discrimination should happen, but to say that it is not happening is demonstrably false.

[Anne]

portlandia wrote:

Anne wrote:

portlandia wrote:

Anne wrote:

I feel like I somehow stumbled on breitbart rather than WCI forums.

Could it be that women just don’t like math and physics and would rather just talk about their feelings? And that men just love crunching numbers and lifting heavy things? And these are just intrinsic differences within our DNA? Hmmm…could be.

Or could it be that young girls are more likely to be encouraged to play nicely with their dolls while young boys are encouraged to get in the dirt? And if a teenage girl excels in AP physics and calculus she gets a different reaction than a boy in the same class, while if a teenage boy says he wants to be a nurse or a kindergarten teacher he gets a different reaction than his female peer who says the same. Can a teenager ignore those reactions and follow their dreams? Sure, but I know I was influenced much more by the reactions of others as a teenager than I am today, and based on my experience with many other young people, the young developing brain is easily influenced by what other people think.  It takes a while to learn the art of not caring what others think….

Likely, as in most things in life, both nature and nurture play a role.

Interesting how people get so fired up about this topic.

The most bothersome thing to me is when people say that someone just got in to med school/residency/whatever job because of their race or gender. I rarely (if ever) have thought that was the case. On the contrary, the people I have met who are from an underrepresented demographic segment are often more talented and had to work extra hard for that talent to be appreciated due to the underlying (often unconscious) biases they have been up against.

Click to expand…

Is your argument that the observable differences in men and women are based solely on socialization? All nurture, no nature? Do you have some scientific evidence to back this claim or strictly anectodes?

How do you explain the gender specific differences in toy preferences, rough and tumble play, peer preferences and infant interest among males and females? Did I mention I am referring to rhesus monkeys and that these differences parallel the differences seen in humans?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

Would your argument be that rhesus monkeys socialize the girl monkeys different than the boy monkeys?

Click to expand…

Did you read the part where I said that “likely, as in most thing in life, both nature and nurture play a role?”

Brings to mind the research that demonstrates that women tend to be more detail oriented than men.

Click to expand…

No, I missed that.    And I agree that research shows that there are sex differences in detail orientation that my mistake exemplifies.

I would like to see the research that shows that a significant part of the reason that sex differences in occupation persist is due to socialization. I don’t see it.

For example, the literature demonstrates that, on average, men are better at spatial ability than women and have greater interest in things. Could these variables not account in large part for the greater percentage of male engineers? Socialization is doing everything it can to encourage more women to get into engineering including female only scholarships, mentors and clubs as well as preferential hiring by engineering firms and academia. These are easily verifiable instances of overtly “pro female socialization”, yet the imbalance persists.

Click to expand...

I agree with you (and the research) that demonstrates that there are *tendencies* for males or females to be interested in one career field vs another.  However, not every boy/girl or man/women aligns with the average traits.  And when you don't align, there can be heavy external pressure to try to make you align.  I think that external pressure was stronger 20+ years ago than it is today, although I think it also depends on what segment of society you are brought up in.  The point isn't to get to 50:50 in everything--but if a 15 year old girl wants to study computer engineering in college, that shouldn't be discouraged, just like a 15 year old boy who wants to study nursing or elementary education shouldn't be discouraged.  I don't think that is the case in many segments of our society, even in 2018.

And if a female goes into neurosurgery and becomes the dept chair, or becomes a mechanical engineer and gets promoted faster than her male peers because, say, she is more detail oriented or has better communication skills, she shouldn't have to spend her career ignoring the steady undercurrent of gossip saying she only got there by preferential hiring or promotion practices.

[The White Coat Investor]

I think we'll close this one down. It seems to be generating more heat than light. Thanks everyone for staying polite in a controversial and political topic.