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  • #31




    I would say that unfortunately many of the systems are not fair and open – marginalized groups face inherent barriers to entry in many professions.  If the playing field was even and there were no internal biases or systematic discrimination then this wouldn’t be an issue.  But the problem is that it is not a level playing field for people in marginalized groups so I would argue that the only way to ensure a process that is fair and open is to first address the outcome.  If you address the outcome and identify the systematic issues only then will your result be one that is fair and open.
    Click to expand...


    You are making an assertion of broad based discrimination in many professions.  The onus is on you to provide some evidence for that claim. Lack of equal outcomes is not evidence that the process is unfair or biased.

     

    Comment


    • #32







      For those that see oppression any time the numbers in a particular field don’t exactly match population averages, how ideologically consistent are you?

      Are you willing to support affirmative action for vertically challanged Asians in the NBA or ectomorphs in the NFL?

      What about the outrage we should be hearing about the lack of males in jobs such as nursing, elementary education, secretarial and social work, child care and library services?

      How about some histrionics for the lack of female representation in logging, coal mining, construction or sanitation?

      Since men are 93% of workplace deaths, a strong principled stance requires advocacy for more female representation in the fields that will result in more women dying.

       


      I think we’ve taken this discussion as far as it will go. I will not respond to your questions, most of which I believe are sarcastic. I would close by asking you to reflect on how many black males you see in the field of medicine. I wonder, is that because black men are less intelligent and less capable? Or could it be that there are ubiquitous societal and institutional barriers that prevent certain groups from getting ahead in life?
      Click to expand...


      Why will you not respond to these legitimate and sincere questions? Why is disgust over the lack of females in financial planning OK, but outrage over lack of males in elementary education sarcastic? These are observed and real discrepancies, are they not? My position does not require that I ignore facts that I find inconvenient by labeling them as sarcastic and shutting down further dialogue.

       

      Comment


      • #33




        @ Kamban.

        I thought the Dalits always got the short end of the stick in India. Can you share your experiences please.
        Click to expand...


        Dalits get discriminated by the land owners who use and abuse them.

        But in education there is so much quotas and reservation for the backward classes and tribes (They are called BC and BT) and other classes (OC) that the general pool slots are quite small. And many of us had to really kill ourselves to get into those limited seats. Whereas the bright BC, BT and OC can also apply and eat into our piece of the pie. And this stupid quota system continues in medical school, post graduate courses for highly sought after specialties, post residency training ( called senior residency ) and even in asst/ assoc/ professor selection and promotions.

        As a upper caste through no fault of mine, I had the unfortunate experience of reverse discrimination at every level. When it came to post residency training it became so stifling that I said " the ************************ with it" and got out of the country. All said and done, this wonderful country appreciates merit more than any other country, which you only realize if you have been trained in other countries. The computer grading my board questions has no idea whether i am white, black or Asian. If I do well I pass the boards. If not, it does not matter what color or gender I am. I have come to love this approach.

        Comment


        • #34










          For those that see oppression any time the numbers in a particular field don’t exactly match population averages, how ideologically consistent are you?

          Are you willing to support affirmative action for vertically challanged Asians in the NBA or ectomorphs in the NFL?

          What about the outrage we should be hearing about the lack of males in jobs such as nursing, elementary education, secretarial and social work, child care and library services?

          How about some histrionics for the lack of female representation in logging, coal mining, construction or sanitation?

          Since men are 93% of workplace deaths, a strong principled stance requires advocacy for more female representation in the fields that will result in more women dying.

           


          I think we’ve taken this discussion as far as it will go. I will not respond to your questions, most of which I believe are sarcastic. I would close by asking you to reflect on how many black males you see in the field of medicine. I wonder, is that because black men are less intelligent and less capable? Or could it be that there are ubiquitous societal and institutional barriers that prevent certain groups from getting ahead in life?
          Click to expand…


          Why will you not respond to these legitimate and sincere questions? Why is disgust over the lack of females in financial planning OK, but outrage over lack of males in elementary education sarcastic? These are observed and real discrepancies, are they not? My position does not require that I ignore facts that I find inconvenient by labeling them as sarcastic and shutting down further dialogue.

           


          The summary answer is yes, I would like to see more equal representation in those fields. The NBA is a special case, and I believe you have the insight to recognize that.

          Comment


          • #35







            I have a few questions for this author and anyone else advocating for the outcomes-based approach to evaluation/recruitment/hiring:

            1. What is the right percentage?

            2. How did you come to that conclusion?

            3. If your industry had an evaluative/hiring process that was sex/color blind and evaluated people as individuals on their merits, and if the results of that evaluative process resulted in a different % mix from #1, why is that a problem?
            Click to expand…


            I find this is a common response.  My answer is that the low number of women in finance (just like in STEM professions) suggests that females are not going into those professions because they just aren’t considering them.  To give a personal example, I never considered pursuing an undergraduate degree in engineering just because everyone I knew who did that was male.  Nobody told me I couldn’t do it, and I did very well in all math and science classes throughout high school and university, and I’m sure all of my mentors and parents would have encouraged me if I had said I wanted to major in engineering.  But I didn’t even consider it.  And looking back, I kind of wish I had–because I personally think that engineering teaches you to think critically better than any other degree field.  I don’t think it’s necessarily an issue from a hiring point of view, but if half the population doesn’t consider a career field due to preconceived notions/lack of role models the industry will miss out on talent and the individuals may miss out on what may have been their true calling.
            Click to expand...


            The more fundamental question is why aren't more women considering fields such as engineering, mathematics, physics, or more men considering nursing and elementary education?

            Could it be that on average men and women differ in their desired fields of study? The scientific literature is clear that, on average, men are more interested in things while women are more interested in people. Could this explain in large part why even though women are eligible for 4X the number of college scholarships and represent 57% of undergraduates and are often heavily recruited into STEM fields, this discrepancy still persists?

            Comment


            • #36













              For those that see oppression any time the numbers in a particular field don’t exactly match population averages, how ideologically consistent are you?

              Are you willing to support affirmative action for vertically challanged Asians in the NBA or ectomorphs in the NFL?

              What about the outrage we should be hearing about the lack of males in jobs such as nursing, elementary education, secretarial and social work, child care and library services?

              How about some histrionics for the lack of female representation in logging, coal mining, construction or sanitation?

              Since men are 93% of workplace deaths, a strong principled stance requires advocacy for more female representation in the fields that will result in more women dying.

               


              I think we’ve taken this discussion as far as it will go. I will not respond to your questions, most of which I believe are sarcastic. I would close by asking you to reflect on how many black males you see in the field of medicine. I wonder, is that because black men are less intelligent and less capable? Or could it be that there are ubiquitous societal and institutional barriers that prevent certain groups from getting ahead in life?
              Click to expand…


              Why will you not respond to these legitimate and sincere questions? Why is disgust over the lack of females in financial planning OK, but outrage over lack of males in elementary education sarcastic? These are observed and real discrepancies, are they not? My position does not require that I ignore facts that I find inconvenient by labeling them as sarcastic and shutting down further dialogue.

               


              The summary answer is yes, I would like to see more equal representation in those fields. The NBA is a special case, and I believe you have the insight to recognize that.
              Click to expand...


              Ok, great. I appreciate the consistency of your position, though I would quibble that the NBA is not a special case, but let's let that be.

              So how do you achieve equality of outcomes if desires are different? Do you believe that men and women, on average, are equally interested in the same fields of study or work? Do as many men desire to work in child care services or social work as women? What about the number of women who wish to work in the oil fields or deep sea fishing compared to men?

              And if men and women differ in their occupational interests, how would you create similar representation in all professions without totalitarianism? Equality of outcome in light of differing interests would necessarily mean that some would be forced into jobs not of their choosing.

              Comment


              • #37
                So medical schoools succeeded with women. Went from all male club to removing all barriers.

                Women are now >50% of med studs enrolling 2017. Did they do affirmative action for women? Not as far as I know. Women stepped up in undergrad to be qualified.

                Women financial advisors? Huge advantage I’d imagine—so many women might prefer a woman FA just like ObGyns. What’s the hurdle to become an FA? No offense but it’s probably kind of low.

                Race? We all know the answer. Has that worked? Still can’t get enough competitive applicants—so we still have affirmative action. Asians and whites—sorry.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Big push in cardiology right now to bring in more women into the field.

                  I love (actually i hate it) listening to the academic blowhards come up with reasons why women don’t go into cardiology

                  Yea yea you can talk about the need for “mentor ship” and a bunch of bs which actually can sound super condenscending.

                  Well, maybe a lot of the female residents are smart enough to realize that a life in cardiology sucks and that’s why they don’t choose it. If they wanted to do it they would..

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I feel like I somehow stumbled on breitbart rather than WCI forums.

                    Could it be that women just don't like math and physics and would rather just talk about their feelings? And that men just love crunching numbers and lifting heavy things? And these are just intrinsic differences within our DNA? Hmmm...could be.

                    Or could it be that young girls are more likely to be encouraged to play nicely with their dolls while young boys are encouraged to get in the dirt? And if a teenage girl excels in AP physics and calculus she gets a different reaction than a boy in the same class, while if a teenage boy says he wants to be a nurse or a kindergarten teacher he gets a different reaction than his female peer who says the same. Can a teenager ignore those reactions and follow their dreams? Sure, but I know I was influenced much more by the reactions of others as a teenager than I am today, and based on my experience with many other young people, the young developing brain is easily influenced by what other people think.  It takes a while to learn the art of not caring what others think....

                    Likely, as in most things in life, both nature and nurture play a role.

                    Interesting how people get so fired up about this topic.

                    The most bothersome thing to me is when people say that someone just got in to med school/residency/whatever job because of their race or gender. I rarely (if ever) have thought that was the case. On the contrary, the people I have met who are from an underrepresented demographic segment are often more talented and had to work extra hard for that talent to be appreciated due to the underlying (often unconscious) biases they have been up against.

                    Comment


                    • #40




                      I feel like I somehow stumbled on breitbart rather than WCI forums.

                      Could it be that women just don’t like math and physics and would rather just talk about their feelings? And that men just love crunching numbers and lifting heavy things? And these are just intrinsic differences within our DNA? Hmmm…could be.

                      Or could it be that young girls are more likely to be encouraged to play nicely with their dolls while young boys are encouraged to get in the dirt? And if a teenage girl excels in AP physics and calculus she gets a different reaction than a boy in the same class, while if a teenage boy says he wants to be a nurse or a kindergarten teacher he gets a different reaction than his female peer who says the same. Can a teenager ignore those reactions and follow their dreams? Sure, but I know I was influenced much more by the reactions of others as a teenager than I am today, and based on my experience with many other young people, the young developing brain is easily influenced by what other people think.  It takes a while to learn the art of not caring what others think….

                      Likely, as in most things in life, both nature and nurture play a role.

                      Interesting how people get so fired up about this topic.

                      The most bothersome thing to me is when people say that someone just got in to med school/residency/whatever job because of their race or gender. I rarely (if ever) have thought that was the case. On the contrary, the people I have met who are from an underrepresented demographic segment are often more talented and had to work extra hard for that talent to be appreciated due to the underlying (often unconscious) biases they have been up against.
                      Click to expand...


                      We all like our classmates and they are all hardworking. Best people I’ve ever met.

                      But you didn’t meet those who were actively denied a spot to make room. You might have been equally impressed by their hard work. You might have lamented how they were unjustly denied a spot to make room and missed out on their dream of med school.

                      Affirmtive action is not free, there is a cost. Is it worth it? Well everyone here got in, so easy for us to say yes.

                      How would you feel if your children are going to have to do better than everyone else to be assured the same chances?

                       

                       

                      Comment


                      • #41




                        I feel like I somehow stumbled on breitbart rather than WCI forums.

                        Could it be that women just don’t like math and physics and would rather just talk about their feelings? And that men just love crunching numbers and lifting heavy things? And these are just intrinsic differences within our DNA? Hmmm…could be.

                        Or could it be that young girls are more likely to be encouraged to play nicely with their dolls while young boys are encouraged to get in the dirt? And if a teenage girl excels in AP physics and calculus she gets a different reaction than a boy in the same class, while if a teenage boy says he wants to be a nurse or a kindergarten teacher he gets a different reaction than his female peer who says the same. Can a teenager ignore those reactions and follow their dreams? Sure, but I know I was influenced much more by the reactions of others as a teenager than I am today, and based on my experience with many other young people, the young developing brain is easily influenced by what other people think.  It takes a while to learn the art of not caring what others think….

                        Likely, as in most things in life, both nature and nurture play a role.

                        Interesting how people get so fired up about this topic.

                        The most bothersome thing to me is when people say that someone just got in to med school/residency/whatever job because of their race or gender. I rarely (if ever) have thought that was the case. On the contrary, the people I have met who are from an underrepresented demographic segment are often more talented and had to work extra hard for that talent to be appreciated due to the underlying (often unconscious) biases they have been up against.
                        Click to expand...


                        Is your argument that the observable differences in men and women are based solely on socialization? All nurture, no nature? Do you have some scientific evidence to back this claim or strictly anectodes?

                        How do you explain the gender specific differences in toy preferences, rough and tumble play, peer preferences and infant interest among males and females? Did I mention I am referring to rhesus monkeys and that these differences parallel those seen in humans?

                        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

                        Would your argument be that rhesus monkeys socialize the girl monkeys different than the boy monkeys?

                        Comment


                        • #42







                          I feel like I somehow stumbled on breitbart rather than WCI forums.

                          Could it be that women just don’t like math and physics and would rather just talk about their feelings? And that men just love crunching numbers and lifting heavy things? And these are just intrinsic differences within our DNA? Hmmm…could be.

                          Or could it be that young girls are more likely to be encouraged to play nicely with their dolls while young boys are encouraged to get in the dirt? And if a teenage girl excels in AP physics and calculus she gets a different reaction than a boy in the same class, while if a teenage boy says he wants to be a nurse or a kindergarten teacher he gets a different reaction than his female peer who says the same. Can a teenager ignore those reactions and follow their dreams? Sure, but I know I was influenced much more by the reactions of others as a teenager than I am today, and based on my experience with many other young people, the young developing brain is easily influenced by what other people think.  It takes a while to learn the art of not caring what others think….

                          Likely, as in most things in life, both nature and nurture play a role.

                          Interesting how people get so fired up about this topic.

                          The most bothersome thing to me is when people say that someone just got in to med school/residency/whatever job because of their race or gender. I rarely (if ever) have thought that was the case. On the contrary, the people I have met who are from an underrepresented demographic segment are often more talented and had to work extra hard for that talent to be appreciated due to the underlying (often unconscious) biases they have been up against.
                          Click to expand…


                          Is your argument that the observable differences in men and women are based solely on socialization? All nurture, no nature? Do you have some scientific evidence to back this claim or strictly anectodes?

                          How do you explain the gender specific differences in toy preferences, rough and tumble play, peer preferences and infant interest among males and females? Did I mention I am referring to rhesus monkeys and that these differences parallel the differences seen in humans?

                          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

                          Would your argument be that rhesus monkeys socialize the girl monkeys different than the boy monkeys?
                          Click to expand...


                          Did you read the part where I said that "likely, as in most things in life, both nature and nurture play a role?"

                          Brings to mind the research that demonstrates that women tend to be more detail oriented than men.

                          Comment


                          • #43







                            I feel like I somehow stumbled on breitbart rather than WCI forums.

                            Could it be that women just don’t like math and physics and would rather just talk about their feelings? And that men just love crunching numbers and lifting heavy things? And these are just intrinsic differences within our DNA? Hmmm…could be.

                            Or could it be that young girls are more likely to be encouraged to play nicely with their dolls while young boys are encouraged to get in the dirt? And if a teenage girl excels in AP physics and calculus she gets a different reaction than a boy in the same class, while if a teenage boy says he wants to be a nurse or a kindergarten teacher he gets a different reaction than his female peer who says the same. Can a teenager ignore those reactions and follow their dreams? Sure, but I know I was influenced much more by the reactions of others as a teenager than I am today, and based on my experience with many other young people, the young developing brain is easily influenced by what other people think.  It takes a while to learn the art of not caring what others think….

                            Likely, as in most things in life, both nature and nurture play a role.

                            Interesting how people get so fired up about this topic.

                            The most bothersome thing to me is when people say that someone just got in to med school/residency/whatever job because of their race or gender. I rarely (if ever) have thought that was the case. On the contrary, the people I have met who are from an underrepresented demographic segment are often more talented and had to work extra hard for that talent to be appreciated due to the underlying (often unconscious) biases they have been up against.
                            Click to expand…


                            We all like our classmates and they are all hardworking. Best people I’ve ever met.

                            But you didn’t meet those who were actively denied a spot to make room. You might have been equally impressed by their hard work. You might have lamented how they were unjustly denied a spot to make room and missed out on their dream of med school.

                            Affirmtive action is not free, there is a cost. Is it worth it? Well everyone here got in, so easy for us to say yes.

                            How would you feel if your children are going to have to do better than everyone else to be assured the same chances?

                             

                             
                            Click to expand...


                            Do you really think that highly qualified white males are being denied a seat at the table so that underperforming women and minority men can be there?  If you do, fine, you can hold that opinion, and we'll just have to agree to disagree.  Please first scan Congress/the board of your local hospital/the speakers at your last CME conference before finalizing your decision.

                            Your last sentence is exactly what my last sentence is saying, but from a different point of view.  I know plenty of minority women who felt that they had to work harder/get better grades/do more research/smile more/work on their dialect and mannerisms/etc. just to be taken seriously.

                            Comment


                            • #44










                              I feel like I somehow stumbled on breitbart rather than WCI forums.

                              Could it be that women just don’t like math and physics and would rather just talk about their feelings? And that men just love crunching numbers and lifting heavy things? And these are just intrinsic differences within our DNA? Hmmm…could be.

                              Or could it be that young girls are more likely to be encouraged to play nicely with their dolls while young boys are encouraged to get in the dirt? And if a teenage girl excels in AP physics and calculus she gets a different reaction than a boy in the same class, while if a teenage boy says he wants to be a nurse or a kindergarten teacher he gets a different reaction than his female peer who says the same. Can a teenager ignore those reactions and follow their dreams? Sure, but I know I was influenced much more by the reactions of others as a teenager than I am today, and based on my experience with many other young people, the young developing brain is easily influenced by what other people think.  It takes a while to learn the art of not caring what others think….

                              Likely, as in most things in life, both nature and nurture play a role.

                              Interesting how people get so fired up about this topic.

                              The most bothersome thing to me is when people say that someone just got in to med school/residency/whatever job because of their race or gender. I rarely (if ever) have thought that was the case. On the contrary, the people I have met who are from an underrepresented demographic segment are often more talented and had to work extra hard for that talent to be appreciated due to the underlying (often unconscious) biases they have been up against.
                              Click to expand…


                              We all like our classmates and they are all hardworking. Best people I’ve ever met.

                              But you didn’t meet those who were actively denied a spot to make room. You might have been equally impressed by their hard work. You might have lamented how they were unjustly denied a spot to make room and missed out on their dream of med school.

                              Affirmtive action is not free, there is a cost. Is it worth it? Well everyone here got in, so easy for us to say yes.

                              How would you feel if your children are going to have to do better than everyone else to be assured the same chances?

                               

                               
                              Click to expand…


                              Do you really think that highly qualified white males are being denied a seat at the table so that underperforming women and minority men can be there?  If you do, fine, you can hold that opinion, and we’ll just have to agree to disagree.  Please first scan Congress/the board of your local hospital/the speakers at your last CME conference before finalizing your decision.

                              Your last sentence is exactly what my last sentence is saying, but from a different point of view.  I know plenty of minority women who felt that they had to work harder/get better grades/do more research/smile more/work on their dialect and mannerisms/etc. just to be taken seriously.
                              Click to expand...


                              For Asians applying to top colleges and med schools I’d say absolutely yes, being denied spots.

                              I absolutely know my kids will have to do better than perhaps yours to have equal chances. Try to place yourself in my shoes—how would that make you feel if you had to say the same about your children?

                              Comment


                              • #45




                                I feel like I somehow stumbled on breitbart rather than WCI forums.

                                Could it be that women just don’t like math and physics and would rather just talk about their feelings? And that men just love crunching numbers and lifting heavy things? And these are just intrinsic differences within our DNA? Hmmm…could be.

                                Or could it be that young girls are more likely to be encouraged to play nicely with their dolls while young boys are encouraged to get in the dirt? And if a teenage girl excels in AP physics and calculus she gets a different reaction than a boy in the same class, while if a teenage boy says he wants to be a nurse or a kindergarten teacher he gets a different reaction than his female peer who says the same. Can a teenager ignore those reactions and follow their dreams? Sure, but I know I was influenced much more by the reactions of others as a teenager than I am today, and based on my experience with many other young people, the young developing brain is easily influenced by what other people think.  It takes a while to learn the art of not caring what others think….

                                Likely, as in most things in life, both nature and nurture play a role.

                                Interesting how people get so fired up about this topic.

                                The most bothersome thing to me is when people say that someone just got in to med school/residency/whatever job because of their race or gender. I rarely (if ever) have thought that was the case. On the contrary, the people I have met who are from an underrepresented demographic segment are often more talented and had to work extra hard for that talent to be appreciated due to the underlying (often unconscious) biases they have been up against.
                                Click to expand...


                                When I was in 7th grade I wanted to skip ahead to algebra for a bigger challenge. 3 male classmates wanted to do the same thing. The guidance counselor told my mom and I it was a bad idea because it might hurt my ability to date. Do you think she said the same thing to the boys? Why would that even matter at 13? I wasn't allowed to date at that age! Anyway, I ignored her and went ahead with the plan. I did quite well, completing 2 semesters of college calculus in two trimesters as a junior in high school. And somehow managed to find a boyfriend willing to put up with me, despite my being a smart girl ;-)

                                The playing field is not level but I am hopeful that will change over time.

                                I can't speak for anyone else but it would have meant so much to me to have had a female physician role model to show me that it is absolutely possible to balance work and family life as a doctor. I'm glad that I decided to pursue medicine despite not having that but it would have eased a lot of my fears over my choices. So I think having someone that "looks like you" is a big deal as it allows you to really visualize yourself in the role.

                                Comment

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