Lounge: Does anyone play poker as a hobby?

[AR]

ChristopherMD20 wrote:

I can’t 3 barrel my missed draws and make it a positive equity play (i.e. playing my strong made hands and drawing hands similarly to balance my range) when they are going to get pot odds to call me down to the end.

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Of course you can't.  The point is that if you're short-stacking optimally, then you don't have to worry about that at all.

I mostly agree with Donnie.  Without specific knowledge of the table characteristics, short-stacking is not inherently less advantageous than buying enough to cover the largest stack.

It requires different play.  Also it's far more suited to online play because you can just change tables (and go back to being a short stack) at will with no waiting.   The logistics of pulling it off in live play would be very annoying and definitely not fun.

[HikingDO]

AR wrote:

ChristopherMD20 wrote:

I can’t 3 barrel my missed draws and make it a positive equity play (i.e. playing my strong made hands and drawing hands similarly to balance my range) when they are going to get pot odds to call me down to the end. 

Click to expand…

Of course you can’t.  The point is that if you’re short-stacking optimally, then you don’t have to worry about that at all.

I mostly agree with Donnie.  Without specific knowledge of the table characteristics, short-stacking is not inherently less advantageous than buying enough to cover the largest stack.

It requires different play.  Also it’s far more suited to online play because you can just change tables (and go back to being a short stack) at will with no waiting.   The logistics of pulling it off in live play would be very annoying and definitely not fun.

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Short stacking is also advantageous when you're not that confident in your post flop play. It's much more difficult to play deep when you're not sure what to do on each street, rather than just push or fold with a short stack.

[AR]

HikingDO wrote:

Short stacking is also advantageous when you’re not that confident in your post flop play. It’s much more difficult to play deep when you’re not sure what to do on each street, rather than just push or fold with a short stack.

Click to expand...

That's probably true in the sense that if we took someone who never played before and wanted to teach them a strategy with a positive expectation, it would be much easier to teach them how to short stack properly.

But if the question is which has a higher expectation when done well:  short-stacking or playing deep?  The answer is not always the latter, which is what OP suggested. It depends greatly on the composition of the table.  I guess you're right that it also depends on the player's ability to execute the strategy correctly.  But that is a factor you can (theoretically) control beforehand through practice and study.

[The White Coat Investor]

jfoxcpacfp wrote:

Love playing poker, but only with my sister and her wife on my annual visit to Albuquerque. (I’m sure this surprises many of you.) I guess that’s not exactly a hobby, but a pasttime? Have enjoyed this for many years as a form of entertainment when I visit and several times paid for the whole trip with my winnings. We could be doing many other things that cost money but the game and camaraderie with Breaking Bad on TV in the background fits the bill just fine.

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I AM surprised you go to Albuquerque once a year.

Poker is fun when it's about the people and not the cards. If I were going to play online, I'd play something else, like Settlers of Catan.

[PhotonsRGR8]

I don't play poker nor understand the parlance of poker but if you're a fellow with your loans paid off GIFT YOURSELF 10K for a hobby which you enjoy.

Are we Bogleheads gentlemen? NO we are not.

[ChristopherMD20]

Pharmvest wrote:

I thought this was a thread about how to get a Solo 401k due to poker “gains” =)

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I wish I was good enough to have significant poker gains. Although, I am curious about this now that you bring it up. If I were to satelitte into a big WPT/WSOP event and cash for >$30k what tax implications would that have etc.? Never going to happen but now I am curious.

HikingDO wrote:

I was out in the first 20 minutes of a 1.5K bracelet event with set over set, and if I lost 10K in 20 minutes I’d be depressed the rest of the week!

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You are a better man than I am. I'd be depressed for at least a month. When I start making the attending money I may consider going to these events. I would really like to get my dad to go but he is terrified to fly in an airplane. I can't convince him to go.

They are running a WPT event here starting Friday. There is a $330 deepstack multi-day NLH tournament with a guaranteed prize pool of $150k. I just don't feel like I am a good enough player to even try something at this caliber. I have a solid foundation, but too many exposable leaks when playing against "real" poker players. I'd be chum to the sharks. With that said, I am tempted to do a $40 super satellite to get a seat into the $220 satelitte to get into the $1500 main event.

 

[ChristopherMD20]

PhotonsRGR8 wrote:

if you’re a fellow with your loans paid off GIFT YOURSELF 10K for a hobby

Click to expand...

Loans are not completely paid off. I have $39k left which should be paid off after my $15k sign on bonus goes through when I start my first attending job in August. The way that I have calculated our projected 2018 budget when including maximizing HSA, 403bx2, 457, Rothx2 and paying off student loans to have ~$20k disposable income. My wife already has ~$5k earmarked for a vacation to celebrate end of training for the entire month of July. I am the process of getting life insurance, disability and umbrella which will add to the expenses thus decreasing "disposable income." I am not a huge believer in having a large emergency fund sitting there losing out to inflation, but the rest of the money is destined for Ally to get to my wife and I agreeing on keeping $30k liquid. Long tirade to say that for 2018 $10k hobby is not an option.

As for 2019 though... assuming I can convince my wife to continue to living like a resident in our very affordable condo that we own with super low expenses then our "disposable income" will be ~$140k. Much of that will be going into a taxable account and saving plan for next home, but perhaps then I can justify a $10k  :P . Convincing my wife of that is a completely other story!- I think I can get her to go for it if I promise at least a percentage of that fund to go to animal related charities- win-win.

[Donnie]

I wouldn’t take $10k to start playing poker even as a person who has won historically and has significant positive net worth. I never actually risked a dollar of my own money playing. I built a bankroll playing free rolls online and slowly climbed the stakes using conservative bankroll management to limit risk of ruin.

Lest my posts make it seem like poker is a glamorous way to make some money. Playing poker for money is a grueling job. You can make mostly correct decisions such that you are a positive EV player and still lose huge chunks of your bank roll over long periods of time due to variance. 100k breakeven stretches for winning players are not uncommon online. These stretches are soul crushing even if you think are prepared for them. Even now, thinking about some of the downswings makes me slightly nauseous. Playing and studying takes a ton of time. In the end, I was making about $25 per hour, and I didn’t have the time or energy to study enough to take my game to the next level, so I gave up playing. The game evolves so quickly, I probably wouldn’t be a winner anymore playing my old stakes.

[HikingDO]

AR wrote:

HikingDO wrote:

Short stacking is also advantageous when you’re not that confident in your post flop play. It’s much more difficult to play deep when you’re not sure what to do on each street, rather than just push or fold with a short stack.

Click to expand…

That’s probably true in the sense that if we took someone who never played before and wanted to teach them a strategy with a positive expectation, it would be much easier to teach them how to short stack properly.

But if the question is which has a higher expectation when done well:  short-stacking or playing deep?  The answer is not always the latter, which is what OP suggested. It depends greatly on the composition of the table.  I guess you’re right that it also depends on the player’s ability to execute the strategy correctly.  But that is a factor you can (theoretically) control beforehand through practice and study.

Click to expand...

I agree, if you have the push/fold tables memorized and know when to use them, short stacking can be very profitable. Both styles can be fun to play, depending on the table dynamics.

ChristopherMD20 wrote:

Pharmvest wrote:

I thought this was a thread about how to get a Solo 401k due to poker “gains” =)

Click to expand…

I wish I was good enough to have significant poker gains. Although, I am curious about this now that you bring it up. If I were to satelitte into a big WPT/WSOP event and cash for >$30k what tax implications would that have etc.? Never going to happen but now I am curious.

HikingDO wrote:

I was out in the first 20 minutes of a 1.5K bracelet event with set over set, and if I lost 10K in 20 minutes I’d be depressed the rest of the week!

Click to expand…

You are a better man than I am. I’d be depressed for at least a month. When I start making the attending money I may consider going to these events. I would really like to get my dad to go but he is terrified to fly in an airplane. I can’t convince him to go.

They are running a WPT event here starting Friday. There is a $330 deepstack multi-day NLH tournament with a guaranteed prize pool of $150k. I just don’t feel like I am a good enough player to even try something at this caliber. I have a solid foundation, but too many exposable leaks when playing against “real” poker players. I’d be chum to the sharks. With that said, I am tempted to do a $40 super satellite to get a seat into the $220 satelitte to get into the $1500 main event.

 

Click to expand...

You should try the $330 deep stack if it's in your budget. You'd be amazed how well you can do in a deep stacked tournament just by playing very tight early on, then opening up your range later and trying to win some coin flips. One of my best cashes in the WSOP was about 10 years ago, when I really had no clue what I was doing, but I won few flips and had a lot of fun! Everyone has some leaks, and one of the best way to learn is to play with players better than you, then correct your mistakes and plug your leaks.

[Brains428]

I used to play all the time in college. It was during the WSOP boom. We would host the game and take a small rake which would fund paying the electricity or the occasional party. It wasn’t uncommon that we would play for pride and also to learn other games like Omaha, limit hold em or even razzie to expand our poker brains.

[MichaelB]

ChristopherMD20 wrote:

PhotonsRGR8 wrote:

if you’re a fellow with your loans paid off GIFT YOURSELF 10K for a hobby 

Click to expand…

Loans are not completely paid off. I have $39k left which should be paid off after my $15k sign on bonus goes through when I start my first attending job in August. The way that I have calculated our projected 2018 budget when including maximizing HSA, 403bx2, 457, Rothx2 and paying off student loans to have ~$20k disposable income. My wife already has ~$5k earmarked for a vacation to celebrate end of training for the entire month of July. I am the process of getting life insurance, disability and umbrella which will add to the expenses thus decreasing “disposable income.” I am not a huge believer in having a large emergency fund sitting there losing out to inflation, but the rest of the money is destined for Ally to get to my wife and I agreeing on keeping $30k liquid. Long tirade to say that for 2018 $10k hobby is not an option.

As for 2019 though… assuming I can convince my wife to continue to living like a resident in our very affordable condo that we own with super low expenses then our “disposable income” will be ~$140k. Much of that will be going into a taxable account and saving plan for next home, but perhaps then I can justify a $10k   . Convincing my wife of that is a completely other story!- I think I can get her to go for it if I promise at least a percentage of that fund to go to animal related charities- win-win.

Click to expand...

Maybe even better than the charitable donations, when I win I always leave cash on the kitchen counter for my wife to find the next morning.

[AR]

Donnie wrote:

I wouldn’t take $10k to start playing poker even as a person who has won historically and has significant positive net worth. I never actually risked a dollar of my own money playing. I built a bankroll playing free rolls online and slowly climbed the stakes using conservative bankroll management to limit risk of ruin.

Lest my posts make it seem like poker is a glamorous way to make some money. Playing poker for money is a grueling job. You can make mostly correct decisions such that you are a positive EV player and still lose huge chunks of your bank roll over long periods of time due to variance. 100k breakeven stretches for winning players are not uncommon online. These stretches are soul crushing even if you think are prepared for them. Even now, thinking about some of the downswings makes me slightly nauseous. Playing and studying takes a ton of time. In the end, I was making about $25 per hour, and I didn’t have the time or energy to study enough to take my game to the next level, so I gave up playing. The game evolves so quickly, I probably wouldn’t be a winner anymore playing my old stakes.

Click to expand...

Agree with all of this. You know how people often say that if you're smart enough to have become a doctor you're probably smart enough to have pursued something else that would have made you more money.  I don't know if that is true, but I hear it a lot.

I think that we could make a similar statement about poker.  If you're capable enough to make $100K+/yr from just playing poker, then you probably could have succeeded at something else where you could have made even more.   Doing that is extremely tough. With all the tools out there, it probably doesn't require all that much intelligence, but the discipline required is massive.

[ChristopherMD20]

Donnie wrote:

The game evolves so quickly, I probably wouldn’t be a winner anymore playing my old stakes.

Click to expand...

I am enjoying my 2 week vacation by going to the casino for the cheap-O tournaments a few days this week until my wife can take off a few days next week. I made the mistake of playing on a Monday afternoon. Once I navigated through the extremely nitty and straight forward retirees I found myself at the final table with people who are much more skilled than I am. Cashed for the second tournament in a row 5th/53, but once I got to the table it was pure luck. I went into push/fold mode with 20-25BB (a little earlier than I tend to do in this tournament structure). There was one stalwort that would not do an ICM chop which effectively cost me $300 bucks.

Lesson- I am still better than the retiree regs who essentially play with their cards face up (3 bet only with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK and will never triple barrel with missed draws), but the rest have me destroyed. I think I am going to go for the evening tournaments where there are more recreational players such as myself against whom I have marginal +EV. It was a Lions Den with the cash game (didn't even sit down when I saw what I was up against) and tournaments on a Monday afternoon. I got out of Dodge with more money than I came in with which I consider a good day in a casino.

[Zaphod]

Interesting thread. I've always mentally liked black jack as its much simpler, but I dont like gambling. To be good requires a grueling process of putting in a lot of time and dealing with inevitable variance, and as mentioned the per hour pay is pretty low. Poker is interesting but theres a lot more going on. Read about a guy who did it the smart way from London, playing online Fri/Sat night for a few hours against drunk americans, thats edge.

[ChristopherMD20]

Zaphod wrote:

I’ve always mentally liked black jack as its much simpler

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Local casino has continuous shufflers so there is absolutely no edge on that game.

Zaphod wrote:

playing online Fri/Sat night for a few hours against drunk americans, thats edge.

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My dad's friend grinds it out that way. Finding drunk fish on nights and weekends.