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House bill would end PSLF, current to be grandfathered

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  • #16





    This is so vastly different than adult onc/nephro isnt it? What makes the discrepancy so huge? 
    Click to expand…


    Most kids who get cancer or ESRD end up on Medicaid. Which does not even cover the cost of the high priced cancer drugs.

    So the net income to the academic institution is a small amount or a loss.
    Click to expand...


    Makes sense, from a payer mix standpoint. Would be interested to see the actual p/l of these centers specifically though.

    Comment


    • #17
      As of a 4 years ago, I know some peds subspecialists' initial offers at my training institution were not even quite 6 figures.  The crazy thing, to me, is that the pay in academic peds (and in academic medicine, as a whole) seems to be inversely proportional to the prestige of the institution.  The University of Midwest State pays exactly twice as much as the identical job at Big East Coast University.  The discrepancy is much more than just the geographical difference would dictate.  I don't understand how so many people are willing to "pay" for the affirmation of the 3x3 inch emblem on the right breast of their white coat.

       

      And, yes, I know that often the motivation goes much, much deeper than that.

       

      Comment


      • #18








        This is so vastly different than adult onc/nephro isnt it? What makes the discrepancy so huge? 
        Click to expand…


        Most kids who get cancer or ESRD end up on Medicaid. Which does not even cover the cost of the high priced cancer drugs.

        So the net income to the academic institution is a small amount or a loss.
        Click to expand…


        Makes sense, from a payer mix standpoint. Would be interested to see the actual p/l of these centers specifically though.
        Click to expand...


        Looks like they've got more than enough to pay a few hematologists and nephrologists some more money.

        https://khn.org/news/the-wealth-of-childrens-hospitals/

        Comment


        • #19
          It's worth adding that if the Republicans do manage to pass a reconciliation bill, it will likely be closer to the Senate version. There's less room for error in Senate negotiations. But since the Senate left the the business AMT tax, they could adopt some House provisions to raise revenue.

          Comment


          • #20
            Some of the hospitals pay less because they can -- if they are fully staffed paying $100k/year, they are not motivated to pay $200k/year.  Some just do it as long as they can get away with it and market pressure slowly raises their salaries when needed.

            Places like Boston Children's attracts so many qualified people that they aren't going to throw a bag of cash at (most) peds specialists when they have 10 more behind them willing to take the spot for the leftover change under the ER bench.

            Also kids don't vote -- Medicaid often pays way less than Medicare for identical levels of care.  The children's hospitals have more money than they let on, but the ones that are seeing a ton of Medicaid patients (which is many) are not generating revenue the way a community hospital with a mostly private/Medicare population will.

            https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterubel/2013/11/07/why-many-physicians-are-reluctant-to-see-medicaid-patients/#74cdd07e1045

             
            An alt-brown look at medicine, money, faith, & family
            www.RogueDadMD.com

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            • #21


              This is so vastly different than adult onc/nephro isnt it? What makes the discrepancy so huge?
              Click to expand...


              There's several issues.  The payor difference is probably the biggest one (I'm about 70% Medicaid).  There's also the inherent underpayment for all Peds services (thanks AAP!).  We also tend to be employed by hospital systems, and don't own/run our own infusion centers, which is where a lot of adult oncs make their money.  In fairness, the adult oncs do tend to see a lot more volume than we do (although ours tend to be higher acuity).


              Which does not even cover the cost of the high priced cancer drugs.
              Click to expand...


              There are no high priced cancer drugs in Peds.  We're still using the same old drugs from 30 years ago.  (Ok, not totally true, but the targeted therapy revolution is only slowly trickling down to Peds.  This may change once immunotherapy becomes widespread).

              Comment


              • #22


                There’s also the inherent underpayment for all Peds services (thanks AAP!).
                Click to expand...


                Agreed -- I was just thinking about this.  The AAP does a ton to advocate for children, but unlike other professional societies, it doesn't spend a ton of time advocating/lobbying for the pediatricians taking care of them.  They should have been out there demanding when healthcare reform was on the table that pediatric services were reimbursed equally on Medicaid as Medicare is for adults, but I don't recall ever hearing anything about it.

                They are really focused on "access" and "the medical home" for good reason, but if you don't pay the doctors/hospitals enough to provide the care, there is still going to be a problem.
                An alt-brown look at medicine, money, faith, & family
                www.RogueDadMD.com

                Comment


                • #23
                  You have a few factors at play for low compensation for pediatric sub-specialists.  First, you're employed by the local children's hospital.  How many locations in the country have more than one children's hospital within a reasonable commuting distance?  Thus, monopsony buying power on the part of the local children's hospital.

                  Second, a pediatrician matches into a relatively uncompetitive and poorly paid field, then takes more years of training in a sub-specialty for what sometimes is even lower pay.

                  A possible third factor may be gender discrimination.  Relatively more women enter pediatrics and peds tends to be underpaid.  This might be correlation, it might be causation, but the "macho", more prominently male surgical specialties tend to be higher paid and the specialties that have relatively more female docs tend to be less well paid.  (One notable outlier is dermatology, but it may be the exception that proves the rule.)

                  Finally, we have payer mix, as discussed above.

                  None of this suggests that the work of pediatric sub-specialists isn't important or shouldn't be better compensated, but here we are.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    From what I have been hearing, it's the Senate bill that matters most at this point.  If it's not in the Senate version of the bill, then it's unlikely to become law.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I'm not a doc (just a lurker, mostly on the Senate tax bill thread and reading the blog generally) but funny enough my son is a Ewing's sarcoma survivor (doing well, thanks to pediatric oncologists at our local and excellent children's hospital). And I study/teach a bit of public policy for a living.

                      Many kids go on Katie Beckett Medicaid, even if a parent has employer-sponsored health insurance. Without Katie Beckett, pediatric cancer cases would blow the risk pools at many small employers.

                      Also, many cancer/blood disorder centers do a lot of sickle cell cases, which are often Medicaid.

                      In addition, as noted, the drugs are often (essentially) first generation. Doxorubicin, cyclophosphamide, etc.

                      But I will say the fellows are fantastic. Underpaid. Lifesaving. Wonderful. Thanks to any and all of y'all who have done that work.

                      PSLF will affect many, many people - not just MDs, JDs, etc. Peace Corps. Anyone who gets an MPA/MPP to work in the public sector. Other people who could make a lot trading municipal debt, etc. in the private sector. There will be a lot of lobbying on this bill.

                      Comment


                      • #26




                        From what I have been hearing, it’s the Senate bill that matters most at this point.  If it’s not in the Senate version of the bill, then it’s unlikely to become law.
                        Click to expand...


                        Different law, not a tax bill. This is HEA, which governs all of higher education in the US. This has a real shot at passage.

                        Comment


                        • #27




                          I’m not a doc (just a lurker, mostly on the Senate tax bill thread and reading the blog generally) but funny enough my son is a Ewing’s sarcoma survivor (doing well, thanks to pediatric oncologists at our local and excellent children’s hospital). And I study/teach a bit of public policy for a living.

                          Many kids go on Katie Beckett Medicaid, even if a parent has employer-sponsored health insurance. Without Katie Beckett, pediatric cancer cases would blow the risk pools at many small employers.

                          Also, many cancer/blood disorder centers do a lot of sickle cell cases, which are often Medicaid.

                          In addition, as noted, the drugs are often (essentially) first generation. Doxorubicin, cyclophosphamide, etc.

                          But I will say the fellows are fantastic. Underpaid. Lifesaving. Wonderful. Thanks to any and all of y’all who have done that work.

                          PSLF will affect many, many people – not just MDs, JDs, etc. Peace Corps. Anyone who gets an MPA/MPP to work in the public sector. Other people who could make a lot trading municipal debt, etc. in the private sector. There will be a lot of lobbying on this bill.
                          Click to expand...


                          Happy to hear about your son.  And welcome!

                          Comment


                          • #28




                            You have a few factors at play for low compensation for pediatric sub-specialists.  First, you’re employed by the local children’s hospital.  How many locations in the country have more than one children’s hospital within a reasonable commuting distance?  Thus, monopsony buying power on the part of the local children’s hospital.

                            Second, a pediatrician matches into a relatively uncompetitive and poorly paid field, then takes more years of training in a sub-specialty for what sometimes is even lower pay.

                            A possible third factor may be gender discrimination.  Relatively more women enter pediatrics and peds tends to be underpaid.  This might be correlation, it might be causation, but the “macho”, more prominently male surgical specialties tend to be higher paid and the specialties that have relatively more female docs tend to be less well paid.  (One notable outlier is dermatology, but it may be the exception that proves the rule.)

                            Finally, we have payer mix, as discussed above.

                            None of this suggests that the work of pediatric sub-specialists isn’t important or shouldn’t be better compensated, but here we are.
                            Click to expand...


                            OB gets paid more and they are mostly female.  Also, it may have nothing to do with discrimination and much to do with negotiations, something females short-change themselves with routinely.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Really surprised that no one else has really commented on the 150k cap for graduate degree loans.  Lots of students are in more debt than that.

                              Also, nobody can predict the future, but I put a pretty good wager that if the house bill gets through and ends PSLF we are going to see some major shifts in new graduates coming out in 7 years.

                               

                               

                              Comment


                              • #30




                                Re grandfathering… anyone read the actual bill? (I will not)

                                I’m imagining the MS4 who has been living high on the debt hog who is about to get burned…

                                 
                                Click to expand...


                                The bill does not have the phrases PSLF or Public Service Loan Forgiveness in it. But it mentions the word forgiveness in ten places. In one of them, it gave me the impression that people already enrolled would be grandfathered in. I think it was page 342.
                                Helping those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street since 2011

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