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Are DO schools easier to open?

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  • Craigy
    replied







    DO schools are definitely easier to open.  I can’t comment on what the AOA or AACOM has had to do about it, but it’s well known to recent graduates that the schools opening the past ten years are mainly a money grab.  They offer very limited clinical rotations, and I didn’t realize until I got to residency how lucky I was to have a dedicated teaching hospital during my clinical years.

    That being said, I disagree with the “DO’s competing with MDs”, at least for now.  IMGs and then Caribbean grads are the ones feeling the major crunch with the lack of residency slot growth.  They will be primarily affected, though if the growth continues it could definitely spill over in another decade.  With the combination of AOA/ACGME residencies over the next few years it will be very interesting to see how things turn out.

    Also, while DOs historically went into primary care at 50%+ rates, that’s not the case anymore.  There isn’t a huge difference, except that DO graduates have significantly more debt.  25% of DO students in 2016 graduated with 300 grand in loans.
    Click to expand…


    do we know how many residency slots are currently filled with international grads and caribbean grads?  and how many new medical school graduates are there?  is it a wash?

     
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    NRMP releases match data every year.

    Their breakdown shows US allopaths vs everyone else.  I don't believe they break down international, caribbeans and DOs, I think they are lumped into the same category.

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  • Kamban
    replied
    in 2017 the number applying decreased slightly but the match percentage increased so the total number of IMG accepted to residency slots was 6591, not much different from 2016

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  • Kamban
    replied




    do we know how many residency slots are currently filled with international grads and caribbean grads? and how many new medical school graduates are there? is it a wash?
    Click to expand...


    As per the ECFMG the number of IMG matched has been stable, maybe even slightly increased in 2016 compared to 2015. They match acceptance rate is 50-52% and I don't see that decreasing dramatically.

    Unless the residence slots increase dramatically, I don't have much hope for these new for-profit DO students to get matched, let alone to the residencies they prefer.

     
    Compared to 2015, the number of international medical graduates (IMGs) who participated in the Match increased by 403, and the number of IMGs who matched to first-year positions increased by 336. Of the 12,790 IMGs who participated in the 2016 Match, 6,638 (51.9%) matched. In the 2015 Match, 6,302 (50.9%) IMGs were matched to first-year positions. (The preceding data include a very small number of Fifth Pathway applicants who participated in the 2015 and 2016 Matches. For 2016, these data include seven Fifth Pathway participants who are not represented in the data below.)

    Of the 7,460 IMG participants who were not U.S. citizens, 3,769 (50.5%) obtained first-year positions. The number of non-U.S. citizen IMGs who obtained positions increased in 2016 for the fifth year in a row, this year by 128.

    Of the 5,323 U.S. citizen IMG participants, 2,869 (53.9%) were matched to first-year positions, an increase of 209 from last year. The number of U.S. citizen IMGs matching to first-year positions has increased in 12 of the last 13 Matches.

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  • q-school
    replied




    DO schools are definitely easier to open.  I can’t comment on what the AOA or AACOM has had to do about it, but it’s well known to recent graduates that the schools opening the past ten years are mainly a money grab.  They offer very limited clinical rotations, and I didn’t realize until I got to residency how lucky I was to have a dedicated teaching hospital during my clinical years.

    That being said, I disagree with the “DO’s competing with MDs”, at least for now.  IMGs and then Caribbean grads are the ones feeling the major crunch with the lack of residency slot growth.  They will be primarily affected, though if the growth continues it could definitely spill over in another decade.  With the combination of AOA/ACGME residencies over the next few years it will be very interesting to see how things turn out.

    Also, while DOs historically went into primary care at 50%+ rates, that’s not the case anymore.  There isn’t a huge difference, except that DO graduates have significantly more debt.  25% of DO students in 2016 graduated with 300 grand in loans.
    Click to expand...


    do we know how many residency slots are currently filled with international grads and caribbean grads?  and how many new medical school graduates are there?  is it a wash?

     

    Leave a comment:


  • SwanSong
    replied
    Two investor groups were recently interested in setting up a medical school here in Montana in either Missoula or Bozeman. But instead of doing what the state really needed, which is a small state school with a class of 55-60, they were bound and determined to make a class of 150 -180 students charging 75k -85k per year and didn't seem too interested to hear about whether local physicians thought that they could provide a quality education to that many students or whether it might endanger the WWAMI program. One of the invesoir groups was actually based out of India, which sounded completly sketchy--not that the other didn't. The sales pitch seemed all geared towards construction profit and jobs around the schoolthan it seemed geared towards providing quality education. I was happy to see them both move on.

    Leave a comment:


  • FutureDoc
    replied
    DO schools are definitely easier to open.  I can't comment on what the AOA or AACOM has had to do about it, but it's well known to recent graduates that the schools opening the past ten years are mainly a money grab.  They offer very limited clinical rotations, and I didn't realize until I got to residency how lucky I was to have a dedicated teaching hospital during my clinical years.

    That being said, I disagree with the "DO's competing with MDs", at least for now.  IMGs and then Caribbean grads are the ones feeling the major crunch with the lack of residency slot growth.  They will be primarily affected, though if the growth continues it could definitely spill over in another decade.  With the combination of AOA/ACGME residencies over the next few years it will be very interesting to see how things turn out.

    Also, while DOs historically went into primary care at 50%+ rates, that's not the case anymore.  There isn't a huge difference, except that DO graduates have significantly more debt.  25% of DO students in 2016 graduated with 300 grand in loans.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zaphod
    replied




    So here’s my take on this.  GME funding from the federal government has not been on any sort of tear, and we all know this.  This has largely kept allopathic schools from opening more slots, and is something the AAMC has complained about even as it’s tried to push for more graduates to meet the expected physician shortage.  Allopathic schools are objectively more competeitive, and selectivity is favored in the US News and World Report rankings.  So while the AAMC may want to increase graduates there are some competing forces keeping that from exploding, and the numbers reflect this.

    On the other hand, DO programs have a higher acceptance rate and know that they control the margin in terms of growth.  And grow they have.  Money is almost certainly the incentive.  If it was motivated to match the growing demand for services they wouldn’t have 1/4 of their graduates not being able to match to AOA programs.  On the other side, allopathic schools match at a rate in the mid 90’s.  The schools are being negligent – objectively.  If there aren’t enough slots and you keep increasing the supply you force people to cycle back around in the system, exacerbating the back log.  But the tuition got paid I bet.

    All of this may change to some degree when, in 2020, the ACGME takes over all training programs, including DO programs.  Eventually DO applicants will catch on that there is likely pain on the back end.  I see the market forces balancing this one out a bit, but the DO growth is really astonishing and concerning for the students in that pipeline.  They also face pressure from PA and NP programs which are exploding at record paces as well.  More DOs go into primary care, and those second level providers are more their competition than MDs.
    Click to expand...


    I remember our school increased class size pretty significantly when I was there. Issue is really residency slots, which seems pretty unconsciousable to push schools to increase enrollment with nowhere to end up. Really a shame for those that are the guinea pigs and cause them to eventually fix it.

    Leave a comment:


  • SValleyMD
    replied
    What will be interesting is how will residency programs will view grads from these new for-profit Steven henager type DO schools vs imgs especially with all the Visa issues. I assume the Caribbean guys will be hit the hardest.

    Leave a comment:


  • SValleyMD
    replied
    Will be an interesting to see what happens

    Utah is opening two. Nevada and Pocatello Idaho are opening two more in the area.

    The bottleneck will remain residency spots

    The for-profit model has finally hit medicine

    Leave a comment:


  • ENT Doc
    replied
    So here's my take on this.  GME funding from the federal government has not been on any sort of tear, and we all know this.  This has largely kept allopathic schools from opening more slots, and is something the AAMC has complained about even as it's tried to push for more graduates to meet the expected physician shortage.  Allopathic schools are objectively more competeitive, and selectivity is favored in the US News and World Report rankings.  So while the AAMC may want to increase graduates there are some competing forces keeping that from exploding, and the numbers reflect this.

    On the other hand, DO programs have a higher acceptance rate and know that they control the margin in terms of growth.  And grow they have.  Money is almost certainly the incentive.  If it was motivated to match the growing demand for services they wouldn't have 1/4 of their graduates not being able to match to AOA programs.  On the other side, allopathic schools match at a rate in the mid 90's.  The schools are being negligent - objectively.  If there aren't enough slots and you keep increasing the supply you force people to cycle back around in the system, exacerbating the back log.  But the tuition got paid I bet.

    All of this may change to some degree when, in 2020, the ACGME takes over all training programs, including DO programs.  Eventually DO applicants will catch on that there is likely pain on the back end.  I see the market forces balancing this one out a bit, but the DO growth is really astonishing and concerning for the students in that pipeline.  They also face pressure from PA and NP programs which are exploding at record paces as well.  More DOs go into primary care, and those second level providers are more their competition than MDs.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kamban
    replied


    people are starting DO schools over MD schools? Is it cheaper? Is there less regulation? Is it easier for a for-profit school to be DO instead of MD? It seems like every time I see a new med school opening up it is a DO school when I would have expected the opposite.
    Click to expand...


    Easier tp open and churn out graduates, now that Caribbean route has wound down. The demand by undergrads to join med schools is more than supply of slots and for profit DO schools prey on these poor souls. The annual expenses are more than MD schools. The price of one near me is $80K per year, before added expenses.

    Leave a comment:


  • startupdoc
    replied
    Much, much easier. There is much forces behind the scenes on MD schools to not increase class size or increase the number of schools in an effort keep both the quality of graduating physicians and the market demands high.

    DO schools, [profanity removed by moderator] and care more for the short term economics, rather than the potential long-term adverse effects of dumbing down the future physician pool.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peds
    replied
    Yes.

    Kaiser is opening a med school in Los Angeles.

    Leave a comment:


  • The White Coat Investor
    started a topic Are DO schools easier to open?

    Are DO schools easier to open?

    Utah is opening two new DO schools in the state in the next few years. Can anyone enlighten me as to why people are starting DO schools over MD schools? Is it cheaper? Is there less regulation? Is it easier for a for-profit school to be DO instead of MD? It seems like every time I see a new med school opening up it is a DO school when I would have expected the opposite.
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