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Are DO schools easier to open?

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  • Physiciancouple.com
    replied
    I find it curious that some of you seem very biased against DOs (honestly, a pretty antiquated mindset in my opinion). Are you guys aware that NPs and PAs are essentially independently practicing all over the country with about 1/8th the training of a DO (or MD) completing undergraduate, medical school and residency?

    This is not to say that I disagree with the point that schools should not open unfettered without more residency spots to train their graduates.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheHappyPhilosopher
    replied
    1. Open up a bunch of medical schools

    2. Charge 70k for tuition

    3. Help your students take out massive student loans and then teach them to game the federal loan repayment system

    4. Profit

     

    It's a form of legalized money laundering. They tax payer ends up ultimately subsidizing a large amount of these students. Not a bad gig if you ask me.

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  • AR
    replied




    It makes no sense to admit significantly more students (whether to allopathic or osteopathic programs) than there are total residency slots available.  I don’t want to see medicine implode the way law has.  It’s not fair to saddle students with debt they may never be able to repay because they will never be able to practice.  This trend is wrong.
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    I don't think it's great, but not for this reason.  The students are presumably intelligent adults, if they want to take on the debt with a high risk of no payoff, that's a poor decision on their part and I would give the student most of the blame if things turn out poorly for them.

    Nevertheless, I still wish it wasn't happening.

    Leave a comment:


  • HikingDO
    replied
    In Missouri you can practice as an "assistant physician" after graduating medical school with no postgraduate training, assuming you passed part I and II of the boards. I'm sure other states in desperate need of general practice physicians in rural area will unfortunately follow this trend.

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  • Kamban
    replied


    You don’t actually have to complete a residency to practice medicine
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    I though all states now require completion of an accredited residency in order to grant a license. Or am I wrong.

    Leave a comment:


  • artemis
    replied
    It makes no sense to admit significantly more students (whether to allopathic or osteopathic programs) than there are total residency slots available.  I don't want to see medicine implode the way law has.  It's not fair to saddle students with debt they may never be able to repay because they will never be able to practice.  This trend is wrong.

    Leave a comment:


  • ENT Doc
    replied
    I think the barriers to opening allopathic schools are multiple. These tend to be university based (not sure what the approval process entails but you'd think it's pretty stringent) and have a historical research standard. DO programs don't, traditionally. Therefore you have certain places that are well-suited for (and that have the potential for approval) an allopathic program. Secondly, the match rate at allopathic schools is historically superior to DO programs, and they are more competitive. Allopathic schools compete more for the best candidates and would undercut their brand if they opened up more schools with few increases to ACGME slots. Last thing they want is to not be able to offer a residency slot on the back end. The more they do that the more they're like the DO schools, especially these new profit mills not the least bit interested in the student or public good.

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  • Strider_91
    replied
    @craigy it is a simple business model that the carribean has been running. You simply accept students that would not get into another school. There are people who will do anything to become a doctor, and these schools know that and then their loans are backed by the government! What does the school care if their students fail step or don’t match? They still get paid. There are kids coming from these for profit DO/ MD carribean schools that have to set up all of there own rotations. I worked in asuper small private practice and a DO student randomly came there for a rotation. She literally did less than I Did as a medical assistant. It was scary to me. There are many DO schools that are great and train phenomenal physicians. PCOM, NYCOM, Rowan come to mind in the mid Atlantic region. It is the for profit degree mills that are the issue.

    Leave a comment:


  • Strider_91
    replied
    This is such a shame and scares me so much. All over the internet you here of schools opening up at an alarming rate (mostly DO) and a massive social movement to open up more residency slots (looking at you doximity/ KevinMD). There are more and more students every year who are unable to match and are in a horrendous position. I feel carribean student loans should not be backed by the gvmt with a 50% successful US match rate

    I fear that medical schools are doing exactly what the lawyers did. Opening a ton of schools to the point where really anyone can get in and saturating the market. I know of multiple people getting into DO schools with less than 3.5 GPA’s and a 50th percentile MCAT. This is not exactly a high barrier to entry. My brother is graduating law school this semester and the job market is literally abysmal in most areas. I’ve seen jobs with my own eyes advertising 30k/yr. I sincerely hope they do not open up more residency spots. It cannot be good for physicians to have a saturated market. We already see the effects of saturation in the salary dispArities between High COL cities like LA and North Dakota.

    This feels to me like older generations (boomers) in a position to profit off the backs of the younger generations and leaving the world a worse place than when they entered. Seems to be a common theme in the professional world, especially medicine. I have nothing but respect for the older physicians fighting the powers at be and refusing to sell out, but it seems most do sell out.

    Also, the argument that these students will be going into primary care and living in underserved areas where these schools are is bogus. They will go into the specialty they love the most with a realistic chance of matching and then move to a place they want to live. The only way to get physicians to stay in a rural underserved area is a financial incentive.

    Leave a comment:


  • ACN
    replied
     







    Depends on specialty. In Derm for MD residencies there are negligible numbers accepted especially historically.
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    Same with Rads. In my 20+ year career, I have encountered less than a handful DO’s (locally, at meetings, etc.) and none were ever admitted to my training program as a resident or fellow. Ever.

     
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    Maybe your program should interview DOs.  I'm the only DO in my surgical fellowship and I've been given the knife earlier and more frequently than all my other co-fellows.  

    I went to the cheapest school I got into, which was a DO school.  Got into private MD schools, but COA was like 2-3* as much.  Ended up doing a very competitive specialty in a DO residency and am in an MD fellowship (took the USMLE "just in case" and scored in the 99th%ile)  There are a few MD institutions that won't interview DOs, but that definitely the "old guard" and changing.  It will really change when MD/DO residencies merge in 2020.

    Anyways, to answer the original question, yes, DO schools are definitely easier to open up, especially "branch" campuses.  They don't have to go through the same original accreditation for the branch, thus you see DO schools with multiple locations in different areas.

    Leave a comment:


  • HikingDO
    replied
    Kamban, you've met your first right here. I was accepted into several very competitive allopathic schools, but turned then down for my osteopathic school of choice. This was mainly because I was drawn to the osteopathic philosophy of medicine, and I fell in love with the school during my site interview. Other than turning down two state schools to go to the private much more expensive DO school, I don't regret the decision for one second.
    That being said, I hate what is happening in the world of osteopathic education. Schools are expanding too quickly, and many students who shouldn't go to medical school will be going. Unfortunately, not everyone who aspires to be a physician should be one. I also disagree with the consolidation of the DO/MD residency programs, as I feel this along with the for profit osteopathic schools will spell the end to real osteopathic education.
    Yea, I know, it sounds like I'm the old man waving his fist in the air and yelling "get off my grass!" to the kids, but I like to think I'm probably in the last group of true osteopaths. Hopefully these new schools don't damage the reputation of the DO degree too much, but I have my doubts.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kamban
    replied


    DO schools somehow manage to sell a less desirable diplom
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    For quite a few students the options are any medical school diploma is better than no diploma. I have yet to hear anyone apply to DO school as 1st choice unless their MCAT scores will not land them a MD slot or they have tried and settled into DO school as the next and only option.

    Quite a few DO turn out to be quite good, once their residency finishes ( the not for profit DO's, not the recent for-profit DO). Many were not great test takers or interviewees but were good in learning medicine once they got into the field.

    Leave a comment:


  • childay
    replied
    Interesting thread.  One has to wonder about the training at these new for-profit schools.

    Leave a comment:


  • VagabondMD
    replied




    Depends on specialty. In Derm for MD residencies there are negligible numbers accepted especially historically.
    Click to expand...


    Same with Rads. In my 20+ year career, I have encountered less than a handful DO’s (locally, at meetings, etc.) and none were ever admitted to my training program as a resident or fellow. Ever.

     

    Leave a comment:


  • Craigy
    replied
    Interesting thread.  I would love to find out what exactly is the roadblock to opening an MD school.  Seems like the accreditation for MD schools is far more stringent than for DO schools and thus the cost is much cheaper to open a DO school, but it would be interesting if someone could put a finger on precisely what it is.  The market probably wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't the cheapest/easiest path.

    If you had the choice of selling MD diplomas vs DO diplomas, you'd want to sell MDs since they are by far more heavily demanded by the market.  But all of these DO schools somehow manage to sell a less desirable diploma, and at the same time charge a lot more money.  Seems like a win-win, except for the poor students of course.   :lol:  :cry:  :P

    Leave a comment:

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