"Political" Discussions

[MPMD]

Rando wrote:

MPMD wrote:

Rando wrote:

MPMD wrote:

 

What does a non political discussion of tax policy look like?

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It’s a discussion of the tax policy purely on its merits without consideration of motives, intents, personalities or parties.

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Merits meaning what? Just describing exactly how it affects my return?

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Not just that.  How it effects you is relevant, but also its effect on the economy as a whole, effect on subgroups, etc.  Just leave the parties and personalities out.

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that seems like just discussing Voldemort while refusing to say his name.

what do you think certain subgroups get more or less help in tax policy?

and the effect on the economy of such things is hotly debated. in fact entire tax policies are based on a single economic idea and have been for decades.

i want to be as fair as possible to your position, but it kind of seems like you might think there are a set of assumptions that everyone agrees on that includes some assumptions that are actually fairly hot button topics. can you give me 3 or 4 axioms you think we all have basic agreement on when it comes to taxes?

[MPMD]

q-school wrote:

Why are you dragging zaphod into this?

 

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ha, because we always seem to agree, he likes all my posts, and i like all of his.

 

[MPMD]

Donnie wrote:

MPMD wrote:

Rando wrote:

MPMD wrote:

 

What does a non political discussion of tax policy look like?

Click to expand…

It’s a discussion of the tax policy purely on its merits without consideration of motives, intents, personalities or parties.

Click to expand…

Merits meaning what? Just describing exactly how it affects my return?

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You seriously don’t know how to think about taxes without involving politics?  If so, that sums up why it would be pointless to have a political debate with you.

Anyway, I don’t care if you guys want to waste time debating politics.  I just skip over these posts.  But with so many new threads getting derailed by these pointless debates that significantly detract from actually helping people with their finances, I expect political discussions to be shut down more and more frequently.

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1) i'm not talking about "thinking about taxes" i'm talking about what has been posted, namely discussions of specific bills and principles.

2) not sure why you are feeling the need to throw in a fairly pointless attack about someone you barely know on an internet forum when i'm asking specifically for clarification on this topic.

3) how many threads have been "derailed?"

4) the threads that have veered into politics are not ones where a new poster is asking about 401k rules, they are for the most part discussions of specific bills in congress. not sure it's a war crime to bring in politics when talking about pending legislation.

[MPMD]

StarTrekDoc wrote:

Yeah, tried to have a strictly budget item question answered without the politics getting dragged into it.

You’d think in a financial minded forum that this would be a simple discussion; yet it didn’t 

All I see is fiscal responsibility has largely been ignored in this tax reform bill.  It’s borrowing against our future and antithesis to WCI on that merit.

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i agree with you, but apparently that is not focusing strictly on the "merits" of the bill?

[MPMD]

NJDoc wrote:

The political rants of late on WCI have driven me away. I have zero interest in getting involved in that stuff. So, I have found some good new blogs that I spend time on that do not tolerate political histrionics.

 

 

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see that's just strange and doesn't make sense. i suspect it isn't even true.

i've been on these forums for at least a year. we've had a few political discussions mostly in the last month unless i missed some earlier, almost all of which have been surrounding specific policy.

if that's too much for you out of a website w/ dozens of hours of content and a forum full of other stuff, i think you might have a hard time ever being happy.

[Rando]

AR wrote:

Rando wrote:

MPMD wrote:

 

What does a non political discussion of tax policy look like?

Click to expand…

It’s a discussion of the tax policy purely on its merits without consideration of motives, intents, personalities or parties.

Click to expand…

What?  This is ridiculous.  The merits of a particular tax policy (especially regarding the things you listed: “effects on the economy as a whole” and “effects on subgroups”) is like a quintessential political question.

 

 

 

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You would have to define "political".  In the context of this discussion I had assumed we were talking about posts becoming excessively partisan.

[q-school]

MPMD wrote:

NJDoc wrote:

The political rants of late on WCI have driven me away. I have zero interest in getting involved in that stuff. So, I have found some good new blogs that I spend time on that do not tolerate political histrionics.

 

 

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see that’s just strange and doesn’t make sense. i suspect it isn’t even true.

i’ve been on these forums for at least a year. we’ve had a few political discussions mostly in the last month unless i missed some earlier, almost all of which have been surrounding specific policy.

if that’s too much for you out of a website w/ dozens of hours of content and a forum full of other stuff, i think you might have a hard time ever being happy.

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what part would you say wasn't true?  i guess if s/he was truly completely driven away, they wouldn't be posting here.  otherwise why would you say it is strange and doesn't make sense and isn't true?    ???

there is a reason many sites prohibit political discussions.  the political discussions here lately are a drag.  just because they aren't a drag to you doesn't mean other people are liars for saying it bothers them and they prefer to spend time elsewhere.

most of your posts are truly a pleasure to read.  i hope to see many of those.

i share donnie's opinion that it is pointless to discuss further.

either wci will decide we need to stop derailing topics with politics or the topics are not being derailed, or alternately they decide that politics are intrinsic to the discussions and part of the experience here.  if they fail to decide, it is de facto a decision for the latter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MPMD]

q-school wrote:

MPMD wrote:

NJDoc wrote:

The political rants of late on WCI have driven me away. I have zero interest in getting involved in that stuff. So, I have found some good new blogs that I spend time on that do not tolerate political histrionics.

 

 

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see that’s just strange and doesn’t make sense. i suspect it isn’t even true.

i’ve been on these forums for at least a year. we’ve had a few political discussions mostly in the last month unless i missed some earlier, almost all of which have been surrounding specific policy.

if that’s too much for you out of a website w/ dozens of hours of content and a forum full of other stuff, i think you might have a hard time ever being happy.

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what part would you say wasn’t true?  i guess if s/he was truly completely driven away, they wouldn’t be posting here.  otherwise why would you say it is strange and doesn’t make sense and isn’t true?    ???

there is a reason many sites prohibit political discussions.  the political discussions here lately are a drag.  just because they aren’t a drag to you doesn’t mean other people are liars for saying it bothers them and they prefer to spend time elsewhere.

most of your posts are truly a pleasure to read.  i hope to see many of those.

i share donnie’s opinion that it is pointless to discuss further.

either wci will decide we need to stop derailing topics with politics or the topics are not being derailed, or alternately they decide that politics are intrinsic to the discussions and part of the experience here.  if they fail to decide, it is de facto a decision for the latter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I don't think it's true that someone who has enjoyed WCI has been driven away from reading it because of 4-5 threads about extremely controversial issues veering into politics.

Crixus posts insane garbage about the coming financial apocalypse and is treated with equanimity. Discussions of limiting his ability to post have gone no-where. He has been far more active on here than any political discussion.

There are frequent posters on here who repeatedly try to advertise for their own blogs, and frequent posters who are simply advertising for their own financial services.

Again, these are discussions of hot button and extremely partisan issues. I'm waiting for someone to explain how one can have a good discussion of a tax bill written by one party with no input from the other and totally out of regular order that is perfectly non partisan. What I suspect is happening is not that so many people are overwhelmingly turned off by politics as a generic topic but that this forum skews conservative and doesn't like to see "their" legislation being discussed in unfriendly terms.

[MPMD]

Rando wrote:

AR wrote:

Rando wrote:

MPMD wrote:

 

What does a non political discussion of tax policy look like?

Click to expand…

It’s a discussion of the tax policy purely on its merits without consideration of motives, intents, personalities or parties.

Click to expand…

What?  This is ridiculous.  The merits of a particular tax policy (especially regarding the things you listed: “effects on the economy as a whole” and “effects on subgroups”) is like a quintessential political question.

 

 

 

Click to expand…

You would have to define “political”.  In the context of this discussion I had assumed we were talking about posts becoming excessively partisan.

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Again Rando this is what I'm specifically trying to tease out of you.

I worry that some people are using "political" to mean "something I don't agree with."

If you say "this is a great bill because it provides much needed relief of my excessive tax burden," that is a short but highly political sentence at least in my view.

[Donnie]

MPMD wrote:

Donnie wrote:

MPMD wrote:

Rando wrote:

MPMD wrote:

 

What does a non political discussion of tax policy look like?

Click to expand…

It’s a discussion of the tax policy purely on its merits without consideration of motives, intents, personalities or parties.

Click to expand…

Merits meaning what? Just describing exactly how it affects my return?

Click to expand…

You seriously don’t know how to think about taxes without involving politics?  If so, that sums up why it would be pointless to have a political debate with you.

Anyway, I don’t care if you guys want to waste time debating politics.  I just skip over these posts.  But with so many new threads getting derailed by these pointless debates that significantly detract from actually helping people with their finances, I expect political discussions to be shut down more and more frequently.

Click to expand…

1) i’m not talking about “thinking about taxes” i’m talking about what has been posted, namely discussions of specific bills and principles.

2) not sure why you are feeling the need to throw in a fairly pointless attack about someone you barely know on an internet forum when i’m asking specifically for clarification on this topic.

3) how many threads have been “derailed?”

4) the threads that have veered into politics are not ones where a new poster is asking about 401k rules, they are for the most part discussions of specific bills in congress. not sure it’s a war crime to bring in politics when talking about pending legislation.

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This is a personal finance site.  The purpose of the site is to help people with their personal finances.  The tax law knows no partisanship.  If a person can’t think about implications of tax code on personal finance without thinking about politics, it strongly suggests that person feels very passionately about politics because one has nothing to do with the other.

Here’s an example:

• Will the new tax bill reduce 401k benefits?  Can be quantified, not political or controversial.  Responses to this question could help people with retirement planning, etc.


• Should the new tax bill reduce 401k benefits for people?  Non-quantifiable.  Pointless political question.  No one can use information shared in this debate to help anyone.

If a person can’t separate these questions, then the person cares so deeply about politics that it is influencing logical discourse.

I’m not attacking you.  It’s fine with me if you have strong feelings about politics.  Most people do.  I don’t.  I don’t expect a political debate with someone whose strong political views influence a discussion of any topic where politics can be tangentially introduced to be fruitful though.

 

 

 

[q-school]

MPMD wrote:

q-school wrote:

MPMD wrote:

NJDoc wrote:

The political rants of late on WCI have driven me away. I have zero interest in getting involved in that stuff. So, I have found some good new blogs that I spend time on that do not tolerate political histrionics.

 

 

Click to expand…

see that’s just strange and doesn’t make sense. i suspect it isn’t even true.

i’ve been on these forums for at least a year. we’ve had a few political discussions mostly in the last month unless i missed some earlier, almost all of which have been surrounding specific policy.

if that’s too much for you out of a website w/ dozens of hours of content and a forum full of other stuff, i think you might have a hard time ever being happy.

Click to expand…

what part would you say wasn’t true?  i guess if s/he was truly completely driven away, they wouldn’t be posting here.  otherwise why would you say it is strange and doesn’t make sense and isn’t true?    ???

there is a reason many sites prohibit political discussions.  the political discussions here lately are a drag.  just because they aren’t a drag to you doesn’t mean other people are liars for saying it bothers them and they prefer to spend time elsewhere.

most of your posts are truly a pleasure to read.  i hope to see many of those.

i share donnie’s opinion that it is pointless to discuss further.

either wci will decide we need to stop derailing topics with politics or the topics are not being derailed, or alternately they decide that politics are intrinsic to the discussions and part of the experience here.  if they fail to decide, it is de facto a decision for the latter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I don’t think it’s true that someone who has enjoyed WCI has been driven away from reading it because of 4-5 threads about extremely controversial issues veering into politics.

 

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i just find this fascinating. 

someone posts something about a subjective matter that only they would know and you call bs because you don't think so.

you would rather call it strange and claim what they say isn't true.

 

in the end, i'm saying your thought process is strange (to me), and i suggest that you have no idea how many people might be driven away by these types of threads.  if someone says they were, i believe them until i have reason not to.  maybe i'm too simple that way.

 

 

[Kamban]

MPMD wrote:

generic topic but that this forum skews conservative and doesn’t like to see “their” legislation being discussed in unfriendly terms.

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This is a site devoted to helping doctors save money and keep more of what they earn and become wealthy. So by definition most participants are likely to be or become fiscally conservative.

As to their social views, one can be fiscally conservative and socially liberal and vice versa. Or be conservative and liberal straight down. I think the social views are what are derailing most of the threads and causing heated discussions. That should be curtailed or be confined to a "Political Area" sandbox.

 

[MPMD]

Donnie wrote:

MPMD wrote:

Donnie wrote:

MPMD wrote:

Rando wrote:

MPMD wrote:

 

What does a non political discussion of tax policy look like?

Click to expand…

It’s a discussion of the tax policy purely on its merits without consideration of motives, intents, personalities or parties.

Click to expand…

Merits meaning what? Just describing exactly how it affects my return?

Click to expand…

You seriously don’t know how to think about taxes without involving politics?  If so, that sums up why it would be pointless to have a political debate with you.

Anyway, I don’t care if you guys want to waste time debating politics.  I just skip over these posts.  But with so many new threads getting derailed by these pointless debates that significantly detract from actually helping people with their finances, I expect political discussions to be shut down more and more frequently.

Click to expand…

1) i’m not talking about “thinking about taxes” i’m talking about what has been posted, namely discussions of specific bills and principles.

2) not sure why you are feeling the need to throw in a fairly pointless attack about someone you barely know on an internet forum when i’m asking specifically for clarification on this topic.

3) how many threads have been “derailed?”

4) the threads that have veered into politics are not ones where a new poster is asking about 401k rules, they are for the most part discussions of specific bills in congress. not sure it’s a war crime to bring in politics when talking about pending legislation.

Click to expand…

This is a personal finance site.  The purpose of the site is to help people with their personal finances.  The tax law knows no partisanship.  If a person can’t think about implications of tax code on personal finance without thinking about politics, it strongly suggests that person feels very passionately about politics because one has nothing to do with the other.

Here’s an example:

• Will the new tax bill reduce 401k benefits?  Can be quantified, not political or controversial.  Responses to this question could help people with retirement planning, etc.


• Should the new tax bill reduce 401k benefits for people?  Non-quantifiable.  Pointless political question.  No one can use information shared in this debate to help anyone.

If a person can’t separate these questions, then the person cares so deeply about politics that it is influencing logical discourse.

I’m not attacking you.  It’s fine with me if you have strong feelings about politics.  Most people do.  I don’t.  I don’t expect a political debate with someone whose strong political views influence a discussion of any topic where politics can be tangentially introduced to be fruitful though.

 

 

 

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2 points:

1. Tax law and politics are not 2 completely separate issues. I'm not even sure how to respond to a statement like this. This current bill cranks up taxes on grad students and cuts them on private jets. Do you really think those things should just be interpreted in a vacuum on the "merits?" I worry that what you're saying is that you understand tax changes that don't affect you much are these totally neutral events.

2. Your example is interesting, but once again are we really suggesting that what we want is just threads full of sterile descriptions of changes to the law? I mean maybe I favor a tax of $5 on every piece of ammunition so a box of trap loads goes from costing $20 to costing $145. Do we just discuss that by noting how much more it will cost a skeet enthusiast?

[VagabondMD]

MPMD wrote:

q-school wrote:

Why are you dragging zaphod into this?

 

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ha, because we always seem to agree, he likes all my posts, and i like all of his.

 

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He agrees with and likes my posts, too, and I disagree with many of yours with political content (not openly and not completely). I am not sure the transitive property is at work.

I do agree with myself, however, when I said the following earlier:

“I am not a political person, and while I enjoy a spirited debate, political back and forth gets tedious rather quickly. Additionally, if you want to witness or battle R vs. D, there are an infinite number of places on the Internet to do so, just as there are if you want to be among those who fervently share your political views.

If I had my druthers, I would keep the discussion here centered on physician financial issues, lifestyle issues, non-clinical career issues, etc.”

Cheers!

[jz]

@MPMD,  As a starting point for self-awareness, write a list of your political news sources.  Which are the righties, the lefties, the libertarians.  Identify those that research and those that simply offer opinions.  This will be a difficult exercise, given the decayed state of journalism today, including the Euro sources. Force yourself to listen to sources outside your comfort/outrage zone, until you can predict them.  Sadly, obtaining unbiased information is a miserable task anymore.