Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Uncompensated side work expected from docs

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Uncompensated side work expected from docs

     

    I will not be volunteered to help train NPs.

  • #2
    So true. Great minor example that nearly all of us would gloss over. When you stop and think about it though, a lot of things start adding up. Not sure if I should thank you for it as I'm young in my career and I'm sure I'll just get myself in trouble by piping up about it!

    Comment


    • #3
      Unfortunately this is why most of our contracts are written in extremely nebulous fashion.  As long as there are stipulations for you to "provide education," "attend required trainings and seminars," "fulfill call responsibilities," "complete required documentation," etc. there isn't a lot you can do to protect yourself from mission creep besides walking away.  Of course, the only thing they want to pay you for is seeing patients.  It's like hiring a general contractor to remodel the kitchen and then only paying them for the cost to replace the new cabinets and appliances.
      I sometimes have trouble reading private messages on the forum. I can also be contacted at [email protected]

      Comment


      • #4
        Alternatively, you could chalk it up to paying it forward. I remember attendings that took time out of their day to teach us radiology as medical students.

        The distinction here is that you are probably not in a teaching hospital. In that case it is just slowing you down which Is annoying. If it's just a minor 4 hour nuisance that neither party wants to participate, send the student home and sign her papers. I remember the surgery Med students who had no interest in other specialties were happy to be sent home early

        But more importantly tell the director no more students! Or have them follow the chief of radiology. Who will likely put a quick end to shadowing

        Comment


        • #5
          This is a bit ludicrous, not because they are shadowing but because it seems so poorly orchestrated.  Though this is not unique to your situation.  Family medicine residents do this in our clinic all the time.  We have no clue when they show up, they have their own clinic and other duties that they run off to during their rotation with us so we never know when they're supposed to be here.  Didn't make any headway after talking to the program director, which is sad.  Also, good thing your hypothetical pre-1993 self didn't respond - although it might be a good recipe for early retirement.  :-)

          Comment


          • #6




            So true. Great minor example that nearly all of us would gloss over. When you stop and think about it though, a lot of things start adding up. Not sure if I should thank you for it ???? as I’m young in my career and I’m sure I’ll just get myself in trouble by piping up about it!
            Click to expand...


            Maybe hold off on “piping up” for now...

            Comment


            • #7


              This is a bit ludicrous, not because they are shadowing but because it seems so poorly orchestrated. Though this is not unique to your situation. Family medicine residents do this in our clinic all the time. We have no clue when they show up, they have their own clinic and other duties that they run off to during their rotation with us so we never know when they’re supposed to be here. Didn’t make any headway after talking to the program director, which is sad. Also, good thing your hypothetical pre-1993 self didn’t respond – although it might be a good recipe for early retirement. ????
              Click to expand...


              We have the same issue with Family Practice residents showing up in our clinic. Drives me nuts and they have zero interest in learning.

              On the other hand I have had a couple of med students ask to shadow me for a couple of weeks, and were great students and very interested. After teaching them for a couple of weeks, I think I enjoyed it and benefited more than they did.

              Comment


              • #8
                I am always happy to pay it forward with interested med and pre-med students. I say no when I am asked to teach mid-levels.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Totally different if you're at a teaching hospital and we're talking about med students/residents, comes with the territory. Wholly another if not and were talking ancillary staff. Thats crazy.

                  Comment


                  • #10




                    I am always happy to pay it forward with interested med and pre-med students. I say no when I am asked to teach mid-levels.
                    Click to expand...


                    I've been asked to have medical students rotate through my office but always say no.  I don't talk to patients the same way if there is a student in the room plus I'm worried patients will be less willing to bring up difficult topics when someone they aren't familiar with is present.  I feel a bit guilty about it since I think the students would probably benefit, but the bottom line is the students aren't my top priority.

                    Comment


                    • #11




                      My Radiology Department Director came to me yesterday with the following:

                      “I agreed to have a nurse practitioner student shadow you in the Department tomorrow. She needs four hours toward her degree.”

                      Here is my (hypothetical) response at various stages in my career, followed by my current response:

                      1993 and earlier (before I was married): Is she hot?

                      1994-2005: Great. I will prepare some cases to go over with her.

                      2006-2015: Okay, I guess, no problem.

                      2016-present: This is total B.S. If the NP training program needs instructors, they should hire them. Do their teachers work as volunteers? I doubt it. Blah, blah, blah…

                      In addition to showing that I can be an insufferable jerk, this is a great example of how docs are conditioned to do whatever chore is dropped on them, whether or not is part of their job, fulfills their practice mission, or is even part of their skill set. In recent years, I have become acutely aware of when I am expected to do something that is not my job and of no interest to me— training NPs to read X-rays falls under that description.

                      (For context, I work in an independent private practice set in a community hospital.)

                       
                      Click to expand...


                      Love the evolution.  I've been/am in a similar situation.  If asked for volunteers, I'll (usually) raise my hand, but I hate being told I "must" volunteer.  Particularly with uninterested/compulsory learners and non-physicians to boot.  Apparently, while I am indignant and solidly in your stage 4, enough folks in my democratic group are in stages 1-3, so I'm outvoted.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        [Post deleted due to violation of forum policy and formal warning issued to poster by moderator WCI

                         

                        Forum policies can be found here: https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/forums/topic/forum-policies-and-frequently-asked-questions-read-before-posting/

                        Forum participants are expected to behave appropriately as though you were speaking with others on the forum face to face in polite company with small children present. If you wouldn’t say it in my living room with my kids playing on the floor, you shouldn’t type it here. Pornography, profanity, belittling, ad hominem attacks, trolling, spamming, sock puppeting and other rude behavior is not permitted.]

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          In my office I have trained several NPs to do speculum exams over the years.  The only  students I accept are ones that I know.  I think if you do this in any volume you should be paid

                          Comment


                          • #14




                            Unfortunately this is why most of our contracts are written in extremely nebulous fashion.  As long as there are stipulations for you to “provide education,” “attend required trainings and seminars,” “fulfill call responsibilities,” “complete required documentation,” etc. there isn’t a lot you can do to protect yourself from mission creep besides walking away.  Of course, the only thing they want to pay you for is seeing patients.  It’s like hiring a general contractor to remodel the kitchen and then only paying them for the cost to replace the new cabinets and appliances.
                            Click to expand...


                            This is very true.  And I'm certain that if one doc were to actually try to take a stand and raise a fuss about this sort of thing, they would be leaving themselves open to disciplinary threats or even getting fired.

                            I have had NP students dumped in my lap as a hospitalist in the past and quite frankly hated it.  Partly because I'm an introvert and introverts hate having people hovering over them when they're trying to get work done.  But, also because I feel like I'm being forced to train someone who may some day steal my job.  Mid-levels are a serious threat to hospitalist medicine because they can be trained to click and type notes and follow specific hospital protocols like any good monkey could and they'll do it for a fraction of what a hospitalist gets paid.  All it's going to take is some smart executive somewhere to get a brilliant idea: "hey let's hire like 20 NP's/PA's, fire 90% of our hospitalists and just pay 1 or 2 to watch over the mid-level's work.  It would save the hospital millions of dollars a year."

                            They are already piloting programs like this in my hospital system...they call them "observation units."  They are staffed by mid-levels who do the observation admits, round on the patients, then report to a single hospitalist who is on call for the whole unit.  They have to round with them 2x daily, otherwise the mid-levels do all the work.

                            Perhaps it's just because I'm feeling kind of surly and irritable today, but it's issues like this that drive me to work harder towards achieving early FI so I won't have to be subject to this kind of BS for much longer.

                            Comment


                            • #15




                              I am always happy to pay it forward with interested med and pre-med students. I say no when I am asked to teach mid-levels.
                              Click to expand...


                              i agree this is a subtle but important distinction.

                               

                              When we hire MDs out of residency, they need a little hand holding and a little mentorship/guidance/supervision and as director, I consider it my responsibility to provide some of that - either directly or by facilitating others to help out.

                              When we hire ARNPs out of training, they need a residency. It is not my responsibility to provide a 1-3 year internship or residency as director.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X