Latest updates to GOP tax draft bill

[The White Coat Investor]

Antares wrote:

I have to mention something. I’ve been venting about a number of aspects of this plan. One is the loss of the self-employed health insurance premium deduction. It has come to my attention that this may in fact NOT be part of the proposed plan. Which would help me a great deal, as that is a $29,000 deduction next year. While I have other gripes about the plan and its underlying approach and philosophy, I’m a little less cranky after hearing this. Sorry if I have led anyone astray inadvertently.

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I was wondering where you got that. Combining that with the state income tax deduction loss could drive my taxes up overall!

[MPMD]

ENT Doc wrote:

 

MPMD wrote:

ENT Doc wrote:

MPMD wrote:

ENT Doc wrote:

 

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It’s cuckoo when things are wildly speculative.  There is more evidence, for example, that the DNC engaged in campaign finance violations with the dossier they funded.  For the record I have stances that land on both sides of the political aisle but find myself more libertarian than anything else (with important caveats).  Anything that makes people accountable for their actions, charges people for the negative externalities they create, and supports the free market I tend to support heavily.  As for the Obamacare 529 thing, of course I had a problem with it.  Why?  Because he failed to understand that the wealthy, who preferentially benefit from the 529 program, subsidize other students when universities engage in price discrimination.  So the parents not only pay a higher marginal tax rate on the money they put away for education, but they have to pay the full sticker price for their children’s education so other kids can learn on the cheap.  That’s effectively getting taxed twice (and at a substantially higher rate), so anything that corrects that absurdity tends to be ok in my book, including the 529.  Government loans have created this student loan mess.  The less they’re involved the better.

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If you are comparing this to the rapidly escalating story of coordination between the Trump campaign and Russia + the now innumerable connections between the two that were systematically lied about by everyone including the President, then you are simply incorrect.

For every action by someone you kind of like, there is simply not automatically an equal and opposite reaction by someone you don’t.

 

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I’m not comparing anything.  I was calling out the ludicrous claims that impeachment is on the horizon or warranted with the current known facts.  Also, bringing up the fact that the “other side” has equally damning things that have come out (and since I posted my last reply as well) isn’t engaging in whataboutism – it was to highlight your bias.  You’re complaining of Trump but seem to give a pass to the other side, which is laughable.  They were both terrible candidates, and all the facts that have come forward since the election have done nothing but prove that point.  Perhaps they were not equally bad, but it seems to me you’re really pissed about a giant douche and happy with a turd sandwich.

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I guess we can revisit this in 6 months and see who is crazy. If Mueller doesn’t conclude what I think he will I will be fairly satisfied b/c I think he’s honorable and credible. You’re clearly very devoted to Trump and I guess that’s fine. Would be interested to see if you would plant a few ethical flags publicly or if you’ll just continue down the Hannity line all the way to “Russia did us a favor.” Based on our limited interactions on this forum I have a guess.

The HRC “scandals” will continue to grow exactly alongside whatever comes out about Trump in your mind, that’s not because of truth or reality, that’s because that’s how this works. Trump could be being led out of the WH in handcuffs and Fox will be talking about uranium.

 

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So because I point out clear bias on your end I’m “clearly devoted to Trump” and then presume to know my ethics and align them with a talk show host I never watch or care for?  You need to check your emotions at the door, pal.  It won’t serve you well on internet forums, or investing more importantly.

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Excellent life advice from an anonymous cat on the internet.

I probably won't take it, pal.

[Doc Spouse]

Since this is the lounge...  If you can't have a conversation about a random topic without injecting your own political biases, then you've got a serious problem.  All that justification about "Well, taxes are political!" is hogwash.  This is yet another thread that, instead of having a good discussion, has degenerated into politics because a few people are so filled with vitriol and loathing that it seeps into everything they type.  Get a grip....  please.

Tax plan update -

I think the current plan is getting worse with every change that the House announces. Retroactive increases built into the plan is also an issue I have with it.  As someone else here noted, in a thankfully politics-free post, what the House comes up with really doesn't matter.  The Senate has already said they want to build their own bill, and it's looking more likely with each day.  If this thing is passed by year's end, I'd be amazed.

Edit: Toned it down a bit.  Ommmmmmm

[hightower]

Doc Spouse wrote:

instead of having a good discussion, has degenerated into politics because a few people are so filled with vitriol and loathing that it seeps into everything they type.  Get a grip….  please.

 

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I find it funny that you (and probably most people these days) equate any discussion of politics as a bad thing.  As you stated, just bringing up politics means the discussion has "degenerated."  It's sad really that we can't discuss politics in a civil manner.  I don't mean we on this board, but we as a country.  I'm not going to point fingers about whose fault that is, but I think it's fair to say that politics has become too divided.  So much so that we can't even bring it up in everyday conversation without fear of a fist fight breaking out.

It hasn't always been that way.  We used to be a very unified country.  Everyone was playing for the same team and could discuss disagreements in a civil way.  I wish we could get back to that, but more and more I'm losing hope that it is even possible anymore.

I know, I know, I'm as guilty as the next guy when it comes to losing my sh** over political talk.  I'm trying to tone it down though.  I actually don't let it enter my personal life anymore.  My wife and I discuss this all the time.  We literally avoid watching/listening to/or reading "the news" today because we understand that it's just part of the entertainment industry and it's sole purpose is to try to elicit an emotional response so you will click on links and watch TV all day.

[Doc Spouse]

hightower wrote:

I find it funny that you (and probably most people these days) equate any discussion of politics as a bad thing.  As you stated, just bringing up politics means the discussion has “degenerated.”  It’s sad really that we can’t discuss politics in a civil manner.  I don’t mean we on this board, but we as a country.  I’m not going to point fingers about whose fault that is, but I think it’s fair to say that politics has become too divided.  So much so that we can’t even bring it up in everyday conversation without fear of a fist fight breaking out.

It hasn’t always been that way.  We used to be a very unified country.  Everyone was playing for the same team and could discuss disagreements in a civil way.  I wish we could get back to that, but more and more I’m losing hope that it is even possible anymore.

I know, I know, I’m as guilty as the next guy when it comes to losing my sh** over political talk.  I’m trying to tone it down though.  I actually don’t let it enter my personal life anymore.  My wife and I discuss this all the time.  We literally avoid watching/listening to/or reading “the news” today because we understand that it’s just part of the entertainment industry and it’s sole purpose is to try to elicit an emotional response so you will click on links and watch TV all day.

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Great post and I agree completely.  As I've mentioned in other posts, I don't mind discussing politics, but people rarely "discuss" anything these days.

Instead of "Explain to me why you feel that way", we end up with "I can't believe you feel that way!"  The latter isn't discussing.  It's arguing, often without any supporting facts beyond how the other's argument makes us feel.  That viewpoint offends my worldview; so it must be wrong!

We've grown intellectually lazy when it comes to debating opposing viewpoints. The sad state of entertainment news has added to that.

Edit: Some timely news from the Senate - https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/09/us-stock-futures-earnings-data-trump-asia-visit-on-the-agenda.html

[MPMD]

Doc Spouse wrote:

Since this is the lounge…  If you can’t have a conversation about a random topic without injecting your own political biases, then you’ve got a serious problem.  All that justification about “Well, taxes are political!” is hogwash.  This is yet another thread that, instead of having a good discussion, has degenerated into politics because a few people are so filled with vitriol and loathing that it seeps into everything they type.  Get a grip….  please.

Tax plan update –

I think the current plan is getting worse with every change that the House announces. Retroactive increases built into the plan is also an issue I have with it.  As someone else here noted, in a thankfully politics-free post, what the House comes up with really doesn’t matter.  The Senate has already said they want to build their own bill, and it’s looking more likely with each day.  If this thing is passed by year’s end, I’d be amazed.

Edit: Toned it down a bit.  Ommmmmmm

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1. Taxes are not a random topic, they are literally the most political topic you could possibly bring up. There is no position on taxation that is anything but a political position. If your position is "well let's wait and see what happens and I don't really have an opinion on anything," that's a political opinion representing deference to whatever party is in the process of trying to make changes.

2. No one has conversations about any political topic without either injecting their position or actively avoiding it (like a news anchor might). What would a discussion about a topic with multiple potential outcomes look like if people weren't discussing their positions? A contest to see who could most eloquently describe the problem? What was your hope for this thread? That posters not make value judgements about what is being advertised as the largest tax reform in decades?

 

[Craigy]

There's a difference between reasonable discussion, even complaints, about various tax proposals, vs blathering about one's political views, who is and is not an idiot or a nazi, etc.

[hightower]

So, the senate version of the tax bill further hurts docs most likely...

They will be getting rid of SALT and Property Tax deductions completely

They will maintain the current 7 tax brackets, but haven't yet given income thresholds.  This is a very big one in my situation. The house version with the 4 tax brackets actually helped alleviate my tax bill slightly (not enough to over come the loss of SALT deductions, but still something).  Now if they maintain the current brackets and income levels my taxes are going to go up even further and I'll still only qualify for the standard deduction.

They will allow for mortgage interest deduction up to 1 mil.  However, that's really not going to help me at all.  You'd have to pay a lot of interest every year to beat the standard 24k deduction.  Not worth it, unless you have a lot of other deductions.  For me I won't be able to deduct anything since I'll be well below the 24k standard.

[The White Coat Investor]

Funny how much discussion there is over the house bill when it hasn't even been to the Senate yet.

[Craigy]

The White Coat Investor wrote:

Funny how much discussion there is over the house bill when it hasn’t even been to the Senate yet.

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Thing is, if Senate bill differs too much, both bills will die.  In theory if the GOP really wanted to pass something, the senate bill would closely align with the house bill.

From what we've seen so far on the Senate bill, there's some pretty major differences in there, so hopefully they will die.    :lol:

[TheGipper]

Likely the Senate bill will be closer to the final conference committee product.

As we saw from ACA repeal, passage in House is much easier than senate. In senate can only two votes including moderates (Collins,Murkowski,McCain), conservatives (Paul,Lee,Cruz), and deficit hawks and those that plain hate Trump (Flake,Corker,Langford)

Complete loss of SALT in senate bill hurts, but otherwise it might be better for us than house. Of course the devil is in the details of where they set the income brackets for the slightly decreased percentages in the seven brackets. I’d guess it would have to be overall better than the House brackets.

If the senate increases the income phaseout cap for child credit to 500k, that will be big ($1650 per kid)

Still trying to figure out the 17.4% deduction for all pass-through business income and if it will apply to physician groups. Potential big improvement from house bill.

Keeping individual and self employed medical expense deduction is big.

Overall I’m slightly encouraged by the senate bill.

[Antares]

TheGipper wrote:

Likely the Senate bill will be closer to the final conference committee product.

As we saw from ACA repeal, passage in House is much easier than senate. In senate can only two votes including moderates (Collins,Murkowski,McCain), conservatives (Paul,Lee,Cruz), and deficit hawks and those that plain hate Trump (Flake,Corker,Langford)

Complete loss of SALT in senate bill hurts, but otherwise it might be better for us than house. Of course the devil is in the details of where they set the income brackets for the slightly decreased percentages in the seven brackets. I’d guess it would have to be overall better than the House brackets.

If the senate increases the income phaseout cap for child credit to 500k, that will be big ($1650 per kid)

Still trying to figure out the 17.4% deduction for all pass-through business income and if it will apply to physician groups. Potential big improvement from house bill.

Keeping individual and self employed medical expense deduction is big.

Overall I’m slightly encouraged by the senate bill.

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Is there a reason you think docs might qualify as pass thoughs? I thought it’s been made pretty clear that we are not.

As I understand it, I’ll get the $29,000 health insurance premium deduction, maybe 12,000 for the mortgage interest, plus charitable which well exceeds the $24,000 standard deduction. Assuming a) no state and local tax deduction and b) that it passes, which I suspect is not a foregone conclusion.

Its been interesting to see all the Republican NY Congressmen saying they can’t support this, knowing they will be punished by their voting constituency if they vote for it. I don’t know whether this was visible nationally, but the affluent NYC suburban counties north and west of the city who had Republican County Executives for years both were handily voted out on Tuesday. The sense is that there was high voter turnout - much more than for a not-even-midterm election, and that many were there to vote against Donald Trump. I think the opposition is pretty charged up. Still, the Senate is probably what counts for this bill.

[jhwkr542]

Anyone else realize the Senate tax bill is taking aim at 457 plans?  Also nixes catch-up contributions for those making over $500k.

[CM]

hightower wrote:

It hasn’t always been that way.  We used to be a very unified country.  Everyone was playing for the same team and could discuss disagreements in a civil way.  I wish we could get back to that, but more and more I’m losing hope that it is even possible anymore.

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[hightower]

CM wrote:

hightower wrote:

It hasn’t always been that way.  We used to be a very unified country.  Everyone was playing for the same team and could discuss disagreements in a civil way.  I wish we could get back to that, but more and more I’m losing hope that it is even possible anymore. 

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Civil discussions would be nice, but I think you might be romanticizing the past. I’m 58, and I can’t remember this era you describe.

Going back a little farther, there have been fist fights in Congress: http://history.house.gov/Historical-Highlights/1851-1900/The-most-infamous-floor-brawl-in-the-history-of-the-U-S–House-of-Representatives/.

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Perhaps I've romanticized the past in my own head too much.  I definitely wasn't around in the 1940's or 50's.  I've always imagined the WW2 era as a time in which people were quite unified over a single cause.  If you look at newspaper articles and listen to speeches politicians gave, their rhetoric was much more tame and polite when compared today.  But, again, I wasn't around then, so maybe I'm wrong.

However, even during Reagan's years, politicians were doing a lot more bipartisanship work.  Though Dems definitely disagreed with Reagan, when he was shot people came together as a country and put politics aside for at least that moment.  It's stuff like that I'm referring to.  I just don't see that happening now.  Every single chance they get dems/repubs make a point to blame the other side for something.  Every issue is strongly divided.

But, you're right, there were quite violent political times in our past.  In my own city I'm aware of a time in which local elections in the late 1800's were dangerous events.  Gangs of armed men would guard polling stations and prevent their opponents from voting.  Obviously women and minorities had no rights either, etc.  So, it's easy to be nostalgic, but usually it's not as rosy as we'd like to think.