Master\'s Program Value

[ktehc]

Hey everyone,

I wanted your opinion on something I'm considering.

My original plan after college was to apply to medical school, and if I didn't make it in the first time, try for a Master's in Engineering before trying to reapply. Well, to my great fortune, I was accepted... However, as I move along in the pipeline, I still have a strong desire to incorporate aspects of engineering (device design, quality improvements, consulting, etc.) into a "side business".

About a year ago, I learned about this program offered through UCSF and UCB called the Masters in Translational Medicine (MTM)*. In summary, it's a one-year program that integrates engineering, clinical medicine, and business/regulatory disciplines with the goal of accelerating bench-to-bedside innovations. From what I can gather, it exactly matches what I want to do at some point (if not throughout) my career.

However, the cost is steep; estimated tuition & fees is $51k in-state, and not including room & board in the Bay Area. Additionally, I would need to take a year off to do it between MS3 & MS4 year, delaying attending level salary by a year. To make things more complicated, I may take a year off to do additional research anyway, as I'm very weak in that area for the specialties I'm most interested in.

I'm having trouble justifying the cost of this program as an "investment" (increase my future earning potential?) vs. a "consumer expense" (I'm just interested in having the skill set). Though, now as I write it out, it seems like I'm crazy for even considering this... I'd still like to hear what you think!

 

TL;DR: Is a Masters program worth taking a year off in med school?

For reference, I have $6k in subsidized undergrad loans, and $49k in med school loans so far, of which $35k is subsidized. I expect to graduate with $113k ($106k principal + $7k interest) total in loans.

[Zaphod]

That actually sounds like a super interesting course. However, man is it a steep price and only you will know if its something that will be worth it in the long run. I regret not doing the MBA/MD combined course now, as you just cant do it as quickly now and would have been immensely helpful. It would probably be more useful than a year of research imo/ymmv. Research you have to be careful about, while it looks great on a application and many residencies now force you to do it, it really benefits the institution and not you in the long run. I would never slow down your track to earnings years for research, the payoff is simply not there, even if you wanted to be chief at some university there is time outside to do so dont burn income and FV of money.

[Xeno]

If it completely matches what you want to do throughout your career, and you'll need to take a year off anyway to be a competitive applicant for the specialty you want to do throughout your career, then it doesn't seem like an unreasonable investment. If your alternative is to have a paid research year or if you are told you can skip a research year and match into your specialty of choice, then that's another story.

[ktehc]

Zaphod wrote:

That actually sounds like a super interesting course. However, man is it a steep price and only you will know if its something that will be worth it in the long run. I regret not doing the MBA/MD combined course now, as you just cant do it as quickly now and would have been immensely helpful. It would probably be more useful than a year of research imo/ymmv. Research you have to be careful about, while it looks great on a application and many residencies now force you to do it, it really benefits the institution and not you in the long run. I would never slow down your track to earnings years for research, the payoff is simply not there, even if you wanted to be chief at some university there is time outside to do so dont burn income and FV of money.

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Yeah, I actually don't really like clinical or bench research in the traditional "collect data, analyze, see results" sense; I'm much more into tinkering and building things. I'd really only be doing a research year to up my competitiveness for residency apps.

I've known some people who did other Masters program while in school (MBA, MPH, MS, etc.) and had enough additional time during the year to also get published on some projects in anticipation of residency apps. I guess that's what I'd be going for; learning skills that interest me while doing some research on the side (though not as much as a full-time dedicated research year).

Thanks for the input!

Xeno wrote:

If it completely matches what you want to do throughout your career, and you’ll need to take a year off anyway to be a competitive applicant for the specialty you want to do throughout your career, then it doesn’t seem like an unreasonable investment. If your alternative is to have a paid research year or if you are told you can skip a research year and match into your specialty of choice, then that’s another story.

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Good point. The research year off would be through a grant-funded program at my home institution, and covers tuition plus a ~$20k stipend for the year. And the specialty in question is Rad Onc, which has a pretty high research barrier to entry from what I've learned. Thanks for your input as well!

[Joseph]

Look, it sounds crazy.  But there are all these programs to suit all of our individual tastes.  You are doing very well financially to this point.  What you are considering is directly against WCI's advice (he has written about the sabbatical/research year several times).

You have to do what you feel is right, though.  If it interests you, it may be a wonderful investment. But realize there are risks involved professionally and financially.

Remember: #yolo

[Osiris]

My two cents:

Unless it is a requirement to get the residency you want, I think it is a waste of money and energy. If you not sure about your career path /going into a residency, it may be a wise move.

I am all for education and at one point was considering getting a MBA just for the ************************ of it, ( this  was 20 years after finishing too much training), but the way medicine is going I would  want my  career going yesterday and get out of medical school ASAP.

[Zach]

I'm a current MD/MS student. My reasoning for the dual degree is:

1) It is something I'm interested in. Why do it just to be more competitive? The extra degree is worthless if you have no passion for it. The degree should be something you are wanting to use for the rest of your life. Maybe you complete the degree and decide it's not for you. At least you found out early and can adjust your career path.

2) Networking. This wasn't evident at first, but my classes are designed for medical students and taught by Chief Attendings in various departments. Learning from some of the best and getting to know them personally has already benefitted me during medical school (I was offered a research opportunity). I have found this to be a great experience in medical school that I would have missed out had I opted for MD only.

3) Competitiveness. Yes a dual degree makes you a better applicant for residency. I list this last as it is the least important. Be happy in whatever you choose.

 

With all that being said, do what you think is best for you. I know this is a financial website, but finances are not the most important. If finances were the most important, we would all be working on Wall Street. Decide what is best for you and then make the financial decisions appropriate for you situation. WCI advises to avoid military HPSP for medical school, well I did it anyway after I had discovered this website and now use the resources here to make the best financial decisions for my situation. Just my story and opinion, but I hope it helps you decide.

[ktehc]

Zach wrote:

I’m a current MD/MS student. My reasoning for the dual degree is:

1) It is something I’m interested in. Why do it just to be more competitive? The extra degree is worthless if you have no passion for it. The degree should be something you are wanting to use for the rest of your life. Maybe you complete the degree and decide it’s not for you. At least you found out early and can adjust your career path.

2) Networking. This wasn’t evident at first, but my classes are designed for medical students and taught by Chief Attendings in various departments. Learning from some of the best and getting to know them personally has already benefitted me during medical school (I was offered a research opportunity). I have found this to be a great experience in medical school that I would have missed out had I opted for MD only.

3) Competitiveness. Yes a dual degree makes you a better applicant for residency. I list this last as it is the least important. Be happy in whatever you choose.

 

With all that being said, do what you think is best for you. I know this is a financial website, but finances are not the most important. If finances were the most important, we would all be working on Wall Street. Decide what is best for you and then make the financial decisions appropriate for you situation. WCI advises to avoid military HPSP for medical school, well I did it anyway after I had discovered this website and now use the resources here to make the best financial decisions for my situation. Just my story and opinion, but I hope it helps you decide.

Click to expand...

Glad to get some input from a dual-degree student as well! To speak to some of your points:

1/3) The MTM degree program is something I'm sincerely interested in; it's the research I would do outside of it or through a dedicated, non-degree research year that I would pursue just for residency apps. However, I've been told that once you have your MD and/or PhD, nothing else matters, which leads me to wonder if I can get the same education as the masters program without incurring the financial costs/delays. Similar to what WCI has said about personal finance education, a lot of stuff you can learn by just going to the library and reading up on the topic (I taught myself programming, music, automotive skills, etc. via the same method).

2) This is a strong point about the program, since I would directly work with clinicians who run the projects. In the same way that away rotations allow you to showcase yourself, I think working at another institution and having the experience might help some if I applied for residency there. Is that "help" worth $200k+ though? I wish I knew!

[Zach]

ktehc wrote:

Zach wrote:

I’m a current MD/MS student. My reasoning for the dual degree is:

1) It is something I’m interested in. Why do it just to be more competitive? The extra degree is worthless if you have no passion for it. The degree should be something you are wanting to use for the rest of your life. Maybe you complete the degree and decide it’s not for you. At least you found out early and can adjust your career path.

2) Networking. This wasn’t evident at first, but my classes are designed for medical students and taught by Chief Attendings in various departments. Learning from some of the best and getting to know them personally has already benefitted me during medical school (I was offered a research opportunity). I have found this to be a great experience in medical school that I would have missed out had I opted for MD only.

3) Competitiveness. Yes a dual degree makes you a better applicant for residency. I list this last as it is the least important. Be happy in whatever you choose.

 

With all that being said, do what you think is best for you. I know this is a financial website, but finances are not the most important. If finances were the most important, we would all be working on Wall Street. Decide what is best for you and then make the financial decisions appropriate for you situation. WCI advises to avoid military HPSP for medical school, well I did it anyway after I had discovered this website and now use the resources here to make the best financial decisions for my situation. Just my story and opinion, but I hope it helps you decide.

Click to expand…

Glad to get some input from a dual-degree student as well! To speak to some of your points:

1/3) The MTM degree program is something I’m sincerely interested in; it’s the research I would do outside of it or through a dedicated, non-degree research year that I would pursue just for residency apps. However, I’ve been told that once you have your MD and/or PhD, nothing else matters, which leads me to wonder if I can get the same education as the masters program without incurring the financial costs/delays. Similar to what WCI has said about personal finance education, a lot of stuff you can learn by just going to the library and reading up on the topic (I taught myself programming, music, automotive skills, etc. via the same method).

2) This is a strong point about the program, since I would directly work with clinicians who run the projects. In the same way that away rotations allow you to showcase yourself, I think working at another institution and having the experience might help some if I applied for residency there. Is that “help” worth $200k+ though? I wish I knew!

Click to expand...

Your first post states you expect $113k in loans at graduation without the MS degree. That is a relative small amount compared to my classmates who will be graduating with 350k+ from med school alone (private med school in downtown of major US city). You are doing great financially! As for MD/PhD being the only thing that matters, I don't believe that. Will I be telling people I have an MS degree 10 years from now? Probably not, but I will be talking about my experiences required of me to obtain that degree. That alone is worth it to me. Yes, I can learn most of the material outside of the program, but I wouldn't get that hands on experience. Of note, my program does not require an additional year, it is built into my 4 years.

 

I'm not sure what other options you have, but translation medicine is growing fast. There could be more options in just a couple years. Do you need to decide now? Another option is to contact the clinicians directly and shadow/spend time on their projects. Also learn how they got into translational medicine, a masters in it probably wasn't around when they were in school. Decide what you want, then make it work for you! Hope that helps!

[BCBiker]

I believe that as a MD, adding anything else to it has reduced added value compared to someone without MD.  If you are interested in this stuff, there is a ton of downtime during your M4 year and also during outpatient rotations in M3 (and you can make tons of time during M1&M2 if you shoot for pass instead of 99% grades) where you can pursue these passions without blowing a whole year on it.  There are so many open access courses and even good YouTube videos out there that you can almost certainly get all of the knowledge you would get out of the program for FREE.  Also, an interested med student/resident can basically obtain unlimited mentoring from local faculty if you are willing to contribute your time to research projects and are excited about their work. If I'm looking at a residency application and one person took a year off for a MS and another is busting their butt making connections and publishing research with a strong faculty in the standard 4 years, I will take the latter every time. It takes more work and will give you a more real experience. Life is about constantly learning, especially as a doc, you don't need to enroll in some overpriced, BS masters program every time you take an interest in something.

We are all reading WCI, not taking a special course on personal finance, and leaning all we need to know. Apply same principle to this.