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When was the last time you used Organic Chemistry?

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  • #91
    Think its maybe useful and helpful as a foundation for other things, but strongly disagree its needed at all in daily practice.

    You dont need to understand why/how the left/right version works, simply that it does and give the right thing, nobody needs ochem except the companies making it. You're just prescribing, underlying appreciation (which is what most are describing) is not necessary.

    I loved ochem, it was fun/cool/easy. I remember probably near none and cant recall ever using it, same with a bunch of stuff.

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    • #92
      O Chem ---> Bio Chem ---> toxicology, physiology --->, renal, biliary, resuscitation, rheum., sepsis, pulmonary.
      It's fundamental.

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      • #93
        When was the last time you used chemistry, physics, calculus(all pre med pre reqs for med school) for that matter. The most direct use I've had with chemistry was to name the element when they pop up in Breaking Bad.

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        • #94
          +1 for organic chemistry being an unnecessarily stressful waste of time. But mostly it bothers me that it's held up as some special filter, better than all others.

          The quote from the interviewed chemist really gets me. "...noting that most students in organic chemistry want to become doctors. "Unless you appreciate these transformations at the molecular level,” he said, “I don’t think you can be a good physician, and I don’t want you treating patients.”'​

          Give me a break.

          I'm all for academic rigor, and it's good for pre-meds to struggle and fail and persevere. But there's nothing special about organic chemistry in this regard other than that historically it has been one of the most difficult requirements.

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          • #95
            To paraphrase from a tweet I saw (https://twitter.com/ETSshow/status/1577505360914841600),

            "Undergraduate organic chemistry should be a “weeder” class for those who want to become organic chemists, not for those who want to become doctors"

            amen

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            • #96
              Apparently https://www.princeton.edu/~mjjr/ORGO/HT03-06.html has old exams from when the professor was at Princeton.

              I clicked on one of the finals and I'm pretty sure I would get a big fat 0 on it, I guess I should turn in my license.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Urojet View Post
                To paraphrase from a tweet I saw (https://twitter.com/ETSshow/status/1577505360914841600),

                "Undergraduate organic chemistry should be a “weeder” class for those who want to become organic chemists, not for those who want to become doctors"

                amen
                Should there be a weeder for medical school? If so what should that be?

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by BigoteGrande View Post
                  Apparently https://www.princeton.edu/~mjjr/ORGO/HT03-06.html has old exams from when the professor was at Princeton.

                  I clicked on one of the finals and I'm pretty sure I would get a big fat 0 on it, I guess I should turn in my license.
                  These are straight forward exams; any undergrad who has barely paid attention and has put a bare minimum amount of studying into these should easily get a C.

                  Part of the issue is that the kids feel like they are buying A's...

                  danesgod: review these exams and let us know what you think. I bet you'd blaze these suckers easily...

                  Edit: the thing I noticed on those exams is how much information is "given away" in the form of reminders. For example: on 301-05, page 5, question 5, there is a "reminder" on the proper numbering formalism for step-wise addition of reagents in a synthesis versus no numbers (i.e. all reagents added at the beginning of the reaction). I would expect any undergraduate to know the difference going in to the final, and I marked them down accordingly when I taught the subject. And there are other examples...
                  Last edited by F0017S0; 10-05-2022, 05:03 PM.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by burritos View Post

                    Should there be a weeder for medical school? If so what should that be?
                    Apparently it's organic chemistry.

                    Perhaps a "better" way to measure aptitude for prospective medical students would be to have them qualify as EMTs, phlebotomists, or some other technologist and have a work requirement that isn't research or shadowing. That forces the prospective applicant into supervised clinical situations that could be more revealing than just rote memorization alone or "look at me washing the petri dishes in lab and getting a paper"...
                    Last edited by F0017S0; 10-05-2022, 05:15 PM.

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                    • Originally posted by burritos View Post

                      Should there be a weeder for medical school? If so what should that be?
                      Personally, I don't think so. I think there should be some expectation of a foundation of knowledge in the sciences, but after that applicants should be free to prove themselves in whatever way they wish. When I've reviewed applications to medical school and residency I ask 1) did this student use their time productively given the resources they had, and 2) to what extent did they excel in whatever they chose to do. Now, if they choose something totally unrelated to medicine I'd start to wonder how they know what they're getting themselves into. But do I care that they filter through the screening of a difficult organic chemistry class? No.

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                      • Originally posted by Urojet View Post
                        To paraphrase from a tweet I saw (https://twitter.com/ETSshow/status/1577505360914841600),

                        "Undergraduate organic chemistry should be a “weeder” class for those who want to become organic chemists, not for those who want to become doctors"

                        amen
                        I’m conflicted on this issue. As a non-chemistry major I actually enjoyed organic chem and did well in the course. Medical school should be a meritocracy, but what if any weeders should be used? MCAT and ?

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                        • Originally posted by GasFIRE View Post

                          I’m conflicted on this issue. As a non-chemistry major I actually enjoyed organic chem and did well in the course. Medical school should be a meritocracy, but what if any weeders should be used? MCAT and ?
                          I think the bigger issue is that students feel like "customers" buying a product and thus feel like "if I try, I'll get an A": the old participation trophy. They are finding out that said attitude is not how the world works. In a way, I think these kids should be thanking this professor for teaching them a life lesson that they should have learned in elementary school, but better late then never I guess.

                          I have several C's on my transcript from my BA; so be it. When it is my time to apply, I will use recent credits from the local JC to offset those marks as much as possible. But I get to explain them, even with several years of work experience under my belt and graduate school. In fact, each of those lower grades taught me something articulable, and far more valuable than any A I earned in undergrad.

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                          • Originally posted by burritos View Post

                            Should there be a weeder for medical school? If so what should that be?
                            Mcat Meyers Briggs or some personality testing

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                            • Originally posted by StarTrekDoc View Post

                              Mcat Meyers Briggs or some personality testing
                              They are already getting rid of SAT / ACT. I bet in 10 years there won't be a MCAT or it will be a watered down version of little importance, and more emphasis placed on a holistic approach.

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                              • Originally posted by F0017S0 View Post

                                These are straight forward exams; any undergrad who has barely paid attention and has put a bare minimum amount of studying into these should easily get a C.

                                Part of the issue is that the kids feel like they are buying A's...

                                danesgod: review these exams and let us know what you think. I bet you'd blaze these suckers easily...
                                Not sure its fair to ask someone with a PhD in organic chemistry, but I'll weigh in...

                                Looks like standard organic chemistry exams I took. I can't imagine anyone who did anything for class getting a 0 on one of these, which I believe the original article mentions. I do recall some students getting in the 20-30%s in my organic class though. That said I'm not convinced I'd get a perfect score, mostly because I've forgotten some MO theory... I made the mistake of clicking on Hour Examination #1, 2004, I'd have to bumble through question #4.

                                The long exams give the students options of which question to do too!

                                I'm mostly upset about this professors lack of chemdraw / attractive structures. ​​

                                Originally posted by burritos View Post

                                Should there be a weeder for medical school? If so what should that be?
                                My choice would be interviews. But then there's too many candidates to sift through, so there's got to be a weeder before they go through the whole pre-med sequence? MCAT + Essays? Internship references? I can't think of a better one... Becoming a doctor is weird. Additionally, as someone married to a doc, it always seems like the supply of MDs/residencies is held artificially low. There's plenty of business for my wife, but then she'd make less money if there were more of her specialty around. Supply and demand.

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