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  • #31
    Originally posted by STATscans View Post

    I have no doubt that working conditions were terrible 100 years ago. Unions had they place a long time ago. now they're not needed. society has caught on.

    Just look at GM, Ford and Chrysler. the union is to blame. and yes I have close relatives who will testify how the union basically made people not productive. couldn't fire them, couldn't get the to work harder etc. I think competition is good. union doesn't make that happen in my opinion.
    Not needed? So 25 years ago when I was a resident and I worked 36 hours straight for $23,000 a year, society caught on a century ago that this wasn’t right? I’m a capitalist, but I’m also a physician who has seen first hand many times what medical training and a career in medicine can do medically and physically to physicians, including a colleague of mine who committed suicide during residency. Would having a union back then prevented her suicide? I have no idea, but maybe having one going forward can help prevent more from happening. Do unions make people less productive and work less hard? I’m sure they do, but knowing how hard medical employers try to and want to push their employees to work harder, I consider this a good thing. Sorry, not picking on you, but I’m very pro-union, particularly in medicine.

    Comment


    • #32
      “Compare medicine to other fields with elite academic talent and a steep learning curve, such as tech and investment banking. ”

      There is probably some data needed here, concerning “elite”. The pyramid gets very narrow, however the ones that don’t make seem to be disregarded.
      Investment banking, law and finance and accounting are perfect examples,
      Compare the number of bachelors and masters degrees to the number that make partner?
      Very few as a percentage are able to even succeed in getting a “training position”.
      The failure rate to make “partner” often have a significant drop in compensation .
      Lower ceiling and higher base in medicine. That benefit is a risk return. Many more new attendings than new high priced “elite” entry positions in those fields. Probably less than 30% if that.
      “The first thing firms look at is their ability to generate business for them. If you have enough business to exploit, they will have no other choice but to make you a partner. You usually only get a fraction of the money you bring in. The rest goes to the firm and those above you. Therefore, successful rainmakers make partners in most law firms.”
      Tons of very competent smart qualified people never get a chance to start climbing the ladder let alone reach the top.

      Comment


      • #33
        i'm not impressed by people professing to be anti-union or making snarky comments about bernie, that's super easy and cheap.

        i want to see those people actually reject the things that organized labor brought to the workforce: weekends, overtime pay, worker's comp, FMLA leaves for parenting etc.

        don't post that you think unions are bad, just put your money where your mouth is and be fully on the side of capital - work weekends for no extra pay and if you are hurt at work pay for it out of pocket. or else you're just a keyboard warrior and frankly not a very impressive one.

        if you are against unions there are all kinds of ways to really show it, your employer will appreciate your efforts!

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by HikingDO View Post

          Not needed? So 25 years ago when I was a resident and I worked 36 hours straight for $23,000 a year, society caught on a century ago that this wasn’t right? I’m a capitalist, but I’m also a physician who has seen first hand many times what medical training and a career in medicine can do medically and physically to physicians, including a colleague of mine who committed suicide during residency. Would having a union back then prevented her suicide? I have no idea, but maybe having one going forward can help prevent more from happening. Do unions make people less productive and work less hard? I’m sure they do, but knowing how hard medical employers try to and want to push their employees to work harder, I consider this a good thing. Sorry, not picking on you, but I’m very pro-union, particularly in medicine.
          SO WHAT ARE THE JOBS WITH HIGHEST SUICIDE RATES?
          1. Medical Doctors
          2. Dentists
          3. Police Officers
          4. Veterinarians
          5. Financial Services
          6. Real Estate Agents
          7. Electricians
          8. Lawyers
          9. Farmers
          10. Pharmacists
          https://www.sprc.org/scope/age


          Suicide is a terrible problem. By occupation, age, etc.
          In 7th grade, my son had another 7th grade girl blow her brains out in a restroom right across from his classroom. I have read about suicides at CalTech, MIT, and veterans. A farmer (friend from childhood) lost his only two sons to suicide.
          I am sorry you lost a colleague.

          Just not sure “unions” are part of the solution. I wish I had a better answer.

          Comment


          • #35
            Very interesting to see how many anti-union/pro capitalism folk voicing here at the same time lamenting the encroaching of PE overlords.

            As said, was an officer of our residency union for two years and not once did we bring a case to the hospital on hours worked (this wasn't driven by unions. hours was driven nationally by accreditation body). Nor did we step into poor performance as again, an accreditation/student evaluation issue; not a worker issue.

            We DID negotiate pay. Working conditions. Pension rights. Insurance coverages. Stipends for call. Call room conditions.

            Some more recent issues after my time were leave and childcare.

            Unions and contract negotiations every few years forces the uncomfortable conversations of these to be revisited and updated for the benefit of all stakeholders.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by MPMD View Post
              i'm not impressed by people professing to be anti-union or making snarky comments about bernie, that's super easy and cheap.

              i want to see those people actually reject the things that organized labor brought to the workforce: weekends, overtime pay, worker's comp, FMLA leaves for parenting etc.

              don't post that you think unions are bad, just put your money where your mouth is and be fully on the side of capital - work weekends for no extra pay and if you are hurt at work pay for it out of pocket. or else you're just a keyboard warrior and frankly not a very impressive one.

              if you are against unions there are all kinds of ways to really show it, your employer will appreciate your efforts!
              I don't think all non-unionized jobs are what you describe. Many non-unionized jobs have great benefits.

              This is somewhat off topic but I think kind of fits here. I think we're seeing a shift in compensation towards those that 'actually do'. By that, I mean the people who can't work from home and are the ones responsible for many aspects of our day to day lives. The people who work with their hands and backs. Truck drivers, construction workers, etc. I saw where Wal-Mart was paying new hire truck drivers $110k/year. I think this shift is fantastic and I hope it continues.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by StarTrekDoc View Post
                Very interesting to see how many anti-union/pro capitalism folk voicing here at the same time lamenting the encroaching of PE overlords.
                Predictable more than interesting, imo. The Leopards Eating People's Faces Party is a meme for a reason.

                Comment


                • #38
                  If your son or daughter was starting residency would you want to make changes (to benefit the resident) from the one that you went through?
                  I know I would.


                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by MPMD View Post
                    i'm not impressed by people professing to be anti-union or making snarky comments about bernie, that's super easy and cheap.

                    i want to see those people actually reject the things that organized labor brought to the workforce: weekends, overtime pay, worker's comp, FMLA leaves for parenting etc.

                    don't post that you think unions are bad, just put your money where your mouth is and be fully on the side of capital - work weekends for no extra pay and if you are hurt at work pay for it out of pocket. or else you're just a keyboard warrior and frankly not a very impressive one.

                    if you are against unions there are all kinds of ways to really show it, your employer will appreciate your efforts!
                    You mean Bernie did all that? I remember a politician whose tag line was "I did that". There are some good things about collective bargaining, it levels the playing field. But I think it is lazy to ignore that there are some downsides of taking a position that "unions" are "good" or "bad". Unions are "power" in the hands of a few people. That "power" has also been abused at times, not for the benefit of workers or the community. Pension funds are one example. That is why we needed ERISA.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      The whole issue could be solved so residents did not need to unionize. The programs could institute a 9-5 mentality with no holiday, night or weekend work along with paid time office , and vacations of 8 weeks. Any night time work or work when no residents are available would be taken care of by the attendings and in order to compensate the residents better , all the employed physicians could be taxed 10% of their gross to pay the residents more.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by CordMcNally View Post

                        I don't think all non-unionized jobs are what you describe. Many non-unionized jobs have great benefits.
                        that's not what i'm saying.

                        what i'm saying is that all of the things that we take for granted that make employment tolerable is the result of organized labor, this is kind of just a fact. non-unionized jobs now feature the results of fights that unions have won e.g. weekends.

                        we know that unions can get out of control, we also know what free labor markets w/ no organization look like. it's childish to just act like union = bad.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Tim View Post

                          You mean Bernie did all that?
                          no i don't mean that, which might be why i didn't mention him?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Tim View Post

                            SO WHAT ARE THE JOBS WITH HIGHEST SUICIDE RATES?
                            1. Medical Doctors
                            2. Dentists
                            3. Police Officers
                            4. Veterinarians
                            5. Financial Services
                            6. Real Estate Agents
                            7. Electricians
                            8. Lawyers
                            9. Farmers
                            10. Pharmacists
                            https://www.sprc.org/scope/age


                            Suicide is a terrible problem. By occupation, age, etc.
                            In 7th grade, my son had another 7th grade girl blow her brains out in a restroom right across from his classroom. I have read about suicides at CalTech, MIT, and veterans. A farmer (friend from childhood) lost his only two sons to suicide.
                            I am sorry you lost a colleague.

                            Just not sure “unions” are part of the solution. I wish I had a better answer.
                            Wow that is terrible.

                            Like so many things in life, I don’t know the answers.

                            I worry about medical students and residents.

                            The debt alone and the feeling of having “burned the boats” after you borrow all that cash for tuition as a 21year old without really knowing what you will feel like at 35.

                            I did not know the suicide rate.

                            Yikes.

                            Will Unions “help”?

                            Uncertain.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              As a small business owner for 10 years or so and as an employee (without union protection) I do have some pretty good benefits and I know that treatment of team members & customers of my small business with kindness & fairness (Golden rule) is not only the best way to do things but also the most successful.

                              Unions are a complex topic.

                              I worry they add additional costs & middlemen and sometimes they can bargain for things that are self-sustaining for the union and not necessarily in the best interest of all the employees.

                              I also realize they can do good.

                              Also seems possible that they can also push a company to move job’s overseas, or replace workers with AI software and robots.

                              I don’t have all the answers.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by AR View Post

                                Well the tech workers generally get some ownership (shares, options, etc.), but they still bounce around.

                                Also docs are labor.

                                Now it's possible for a doctor to run and own a successful practice, but in that case it's more useful to think of the individual as having two separate jobs:
                                1. Doctor
                                2. Entrepreneur/Business owner

                                That first one is labor.

                                Now it's true that most docs don't pursue this type of practice setting for a variety of reasons, some of which are quite regrettable. But that doesn't change the fact that the 'taking care of patients' part of the job is labor.
                                Labor acts differently when it also is the owner. For example, I actually care whether my patient comes back to our ED. Why? Because I own the job. I actually appreciate it when the ED is busy. Why? Because I make more money because I own the job. How do the nurses feel? Very differently. They're paid hourly by the hospital.

                                So no, I don't think you're quite right there. The jobs are too melded to be separated out.
                                Helping those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street since 2011

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