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  • #31
    Originally posted by VentAlarm View Post

    These sorts of arguments are unhelpful. Your making an unrefutable claim, not because it’s obviously true, but because of the structure of your argument - you’re essentially just saying “I’m right.”

    Also, I would suggest that the above example is pretty overt racism, not the sort of “subtle” nonsense argued with the stupid “if you click too slowly you’re racist.”
    We're going in a lot of different directions at once here. What I'm discussing with Lordosis is quite different from what I'm discussing with you.

    With Lordosis, I'm trying to find out what he thinks. He seems to think that minorities get poorer care at least sometimes. Once you start with that assumption the discussion is very different than it is with you. In his case, I'm trying to find out what he thinks about how frequent that is and why it happens.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by AR View Post

      We're going in a lot of different directions at once here. What I'm discussing with Lordosis is quite different from what I'm discussing with you.

      With Lordosis, I'm trying to find out what he thinks. He seems to think that minorities get poorer care at least sometimes. Once you start with that assumption the discussion is very different than it is with you. In his case, I'm trying to find out what he thinks about how frequent that is and why it happens.
      I’m going to stop here, but suffice it to say I think it is ironic that people who can see race or racism in nearly every facet of life do not believe in he division of certain assets weighted along racial lines do not see racism. It is the same moving of goal posts/redefining words that says words can now be violent.

      (I’m not saying this is you)

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by VentAlarm View Post

        I’m going to stop here, but suffice it to say I think it is ironic that people who can see race or racism in nearly every facet of life do not believe in he division of certain assets weighted along racial lines do not see racism. It is the same moving of goal posts/redefining words that says words can now be violent.

        (I’m not saying this is you)
        I read that a couple of times and I'm still not sure I understand what you mean.

        Before you go, do you think you could weigh in on what's wrong with those resume studies that show implicit bias? Do you think they're are garbage too, or did you just never encounter them before?

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by AR View Post

          I read that a couple of times and I'm still not sure I understand what you mean.

          Before you go, do you think you could weigh in on what's wrong with those resume studies that show implicit bias? Do you think they're are garbage too, or did you just never encounter them before?
          I think they are valid, but not they are a sign of overt racism, not a subtle, implicit bias.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by VentAlarm View Post

            I think they are valid, but not they are a sign of overt racism, not a subtle, implicit bias.
            I guess if you agree about the scope of the racism and you just want to call it overt rather than implicit, I'm not gonna fight you on that. I'd say "Welcome, comrade".

            Having said that, I'm not sure you're correct. Here's an interesting finding:

            "But these applicants who let their guard down about their race ended up inadvertently hurting their chances of being considered: Employers claiming to be pro-diversity discriminated against resumes with racial references just as much as employers who didn’t mention diversity at all in their job ads."

            How overt can it be, if the employers are explicitly claiming they have the opposite goal?

            Source:
            https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minoritie...ore-interviews

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by AR View Post

              Among the most convincing studies on implicit bias are those resume studies where they send out identical resumes but just change names so some are sound white and others sound black. Spoiler alert: Despite identical resumes, they don't get the same results.
              You see the same effect with names that are more likely to be used by the lower-classes, too (mostly some old-fashioned Biblical names, and 'creative' spellings). Eli and Judd won't get the same favorable response that Nathan and William receive, and Moniqua and Shawna won't be regarded as highly as Monica and Shauna.

              Implicit bias is real. How to prevent it from unfairly excluding capable people from positions they qualify for is the tough part to deal with. Resumes and job applications that lack a name don't necessarily remove all the relevant cues, and blind auditions (such as are used in the classical music world for orchestra auditions) really aren't practical when choosing medical students (as we do need to see how professionally the candidate carries himself/herself).

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              • #37
                Where are you really from?
                You speak such good English.
                Go back to your own country!

                These are the comments I encounter regularly, USA 2021. It still shows we have some ways to go.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by AR View Post

                  I see, so they would claim exactly what you're claiming (i.e., I'm sure it happens, just not from me").
                  How do you know when a liar is lying? Is this a riddle?

                  If everyone is unknowingly biased we are all screwed. I refuse to believe that. Maybe I am optimistic. Maybe I am naive.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Lordosis View Post

                    How do you know when a liar is lying? Is this a riddle?

                    If everyone is unknowingly biased we are all screwed. I refuse to believe that. Maybe I am optimistic. Maybe I am naive.
                    I'm still having a hard time understanding where you think this negative effect on health care for minorities is coming from.

                    It's most definitely not coming from unbiased paragons of virtue such as yourself.

                    Based on your prior responses we're down to

                    1. People who are knowingly racist and just don't tell anyone they are
                    2. People who are unconsciously biased and just don't know it.

                    If you don't think that it's #2. Then you must think there are a bunch of racist liars around. That doesn't sound like an optimistic worldview to me.
                    Last edited by AR; 12-24-2021, 05:51 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by VentAlarm View Post

                      Most of the stuff I’ve seen on unconscious bias is trash that should get rejected from a decent journal. I’m going to stop here because I’m not trying to get cancelled.
                      https://www.pnas.org/content/116/26/12590

                      Link to a partial list of publications by Mahzarin Banaji. Some pretty good journals there, including PNAS.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by AR View Post

                        Among the most convincing studies on implicit bias are those resume studies where they send out identical resumes but just change names so some are sound white and others sound black. Spoiler alert: Despite identical resumes, they don't get the same results.
                        Also studies showing a profound bias against women in hiring musicians at orchestras. The field switched to holding blinded auditions, down to carpeting the floor where the candidates walked to get the seat behind the screen. This was necessary so the judges could not hear the footsteps and guess male or female.
                        This change to blind auditions lead to a major increase in the number of women in major orchestras. All while the people previously picking performers swearing they were completely unbiased.

                        A review with about 40 references.
                        The Implicit Revolution: Reconceiving the Relation Between Conscious
                        and Unconscious.
                        American Psychologist
                        2017, Vol. 72, No. 9, 861–871

                        Anthony G. Greenwald
                        Mahzarin R. Banaji

                        The legitimate concerns with the IAT revolve around the ability to use it to measure changes in bias. It is unclear whether these biases can be unlearned and thus it is unclear whether the changes in the test mean the biases are better.
                        It is also unclear the extent to which the IAT predicts actual behavior. It may not capture people's efforts to overcome their assumptions.
                        But it is clear that people think this way and it influences their decisions.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Lordosis View Post


                          If everyone is unknowingly biased we are all screwed. I refuse to believe that. Maybe I am optimistic. Maybe I am naive.
                          There is a lot of evidence that the bolded statement is true.

                          As for the italicized statement-I hope that as a physician, you will be persuaded by reading the literature, rather than deciding not to believe something, no matter what the data may say.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by AR View Post

                            I'm still having a hard time understanding where you think this negative effect on health care for minorities is coming from.

                            It's most definitely not coming from unbiased paragons of virtue such as yourself.

                            Based on your prior responses we're down to

                            1. People who are knowingly racist and just don't tell anyone they are
                            2. People who are unconsciously biased and just don't know it.

                            If you don't think that it's #2. Then you must think there are a bunch of racist liars around. That doesn't sound like an optimistic worldview to me.
                            The negative effect comes from many things. I think the biggest is money. Low ses correlates with poor healthcare.

                            Fear or suspicion of healthcare of some groups can lead to delays in care. How is that caused by someone being racist?

                            Once they are in our doors we should treat everyone the same. Getting everyone access is a whole different story.


                            ​​​​​​

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Lordosis View Post

                              The negative effect comes from many things. I think the biggest is money. Low ses correlates with poor healthcare.

                              Fear or suspicion of healthcare of some groups can lead to delays in care. How is that caused by someone being racist?

                              Once they are in our doors we should treat everyone the same. Getting everyone access is a whole different story.


                              ​​​​​​
                              I'm pretty sure these effects have been identified even after controlling for access. Even the dimmest researcher would think of that.

                              If you think it's mostly an access problem that's really a different issue entirely. That is also a problem, but it's a different problem.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by AR View Post

                                I'm pretty sure these effects have been identified even after controlling for access. Even the dimmest researcher would think of that.

                                If you think it's mostly an access problem that's really a different issue entirely. That is also a problem, but it's a different problem.
                                I am sure controlling for this was a goal but I doubt it could be done well.

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