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  • #61
    Originally posted by Tim View Post

    Would you go for 50% of that? $30k (2080 hrs a year) per year? That's $14,82 per hour excluding any payroll tax or benefits. Throw in sick pay, healthcare and the leave stuff and the "minimum wage" required is getting closer to the $60k. No skills required, just show up.
    We are almost there.
    Nope, I think that's too high too. Thats about 600 a week, the fed increase in the unemployment pay we saw over the last year that I believe was market-distorting in a bad way, although again still surprised because it seems like we are still having labor issues even without extra unemployment pay.

    I like 1k/mo

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Turf Doc View Post

      Nope, I think that's too high too. Thats about 600 a week, the fed increase in the unemployment pay we saw over the last year that I believe was market-distorting in a bad way, although again still surprised because it seems like we are still having labor issues even without extra unemployment pay.

      I like 1k/mo
      Fair wages is closing in on $60k per year. Just saying. $15/hour is pretty close to that for any employer.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Tim View Post
        Fair wages is closing in on $60k per year. Just saying. $15/hour is pretty close to that for any employer.
        Sorry i think i misunderstood, i was referring to UBI. 15/hr obviously is "more" than 30k when accounting for benefits like you're mentioning, but we dont usually talk about those when talking about wages, at least for the lower paid among us.. I dont think 15/hr is unreasonable in the wealthiest country in the world in 2021. I mean we're already seeing thats the new defacto min wage in many places and shareholders seem to be doing just fine...

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Turf Doc View Post

          Nope, I think that's too high too. Thats about 600 a week, the fed increase in the unemployment pay we saw over the last year that I believe was market-distorting in a bad way, although again still surprised because it seems like we are still having labor issues even without extra unemployment pay.

          I like 1k/mo
          I'm genuinely curious how you came to the conclusion that gifting specifically 1k/mo/person will contribute positively to the economy.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Turf Doc View Post

            Sorry i think i misunderstood, i was referring to UBI. 15/hr obviously is "more" than 30k when accounting for benefits like you're mentioning, but we dont usually talk about those when talking about wages, at least for the lower paid among us.. I dont think 15/hr is unreasonable in the wealthiest country in the world in 2021. I mean we're already seeing thats the new defacto min wage in many places and shareholders seem to be doing just fine...
            Then you support minimum wage at close to $60k per year. The question is should UBI at $30k be subject to payroll taxes? If so, then working and UBI are about at a breakeven. Why put up with work is the result? Especially is you get other government assistance. Economically, no one will work for 40 hrs for a breakeven. That is the circular argument against many of the "fair wage" proposals that also have additional supports. The total package, not just UBI needs to be considered. On top of that, it has not been ever shown to be effective. The point is before being in favor or against, we are talking "huge" benefits that may or may not succeed. Each piece has a very strong compassionate emotional appeal. Many things have very good intentions with disappointing results. Single issue is a problem in solving complex social issues,
            I do not have the answers by any means. That is where the political process has potentially gone off the rails.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Huggy View Post

              I'm genuinely curious how you came to the conclusion that gifting specifically 1k/mo/person will contribute positively to the economy.
              Andrew Yang came up with 1k/month, Im not sure if anyone actually asked him why he decided 1k/mo but thats something i was wondering too... Im sure i could be convinced around 1k give or take but i havent put that much thought into it. I think it will contribute positively to the economy because most people blow whatever money they have. Without credit cards im sure our economy would be smaller.

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              • #67
                Okay maybe 12K a year would not be enough for someone to not work but maybe it would be enough to allow someone to work less that probably should be working more. I don't think it's going to advance people very much. I think it would be a blessing to some people and they would use it and I think other people will cut back or not push hard because now they don't need to. I think the ladder would be more common.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Tim View Post

                  Then you support minimum wage at close to $60k per year. The question is should UBI at $30k be subject to payroll taxes? If so, then working and UBI are about at a breakeven. Why put up with work is the result? Especially is you get other government assistance. Economically, no one will work for 40 hrs for a breakeven. That is the circular argument against many of the "fair wage" proposals that also have additional supports. The total package, not just UBI needs to be considered. On top of that, it has not been ever shown to be effective. The point is before being in favor or against, we are talking "huge" benefits that may or may not succeed. Each piece has a very strong compassionate emotional appeal. Many things have very good intentions with disappointing results. Single issue is a problem in solving complex social issues,
                  I do not have the answers by any means. That is where the political process has potentially gone off the rails.
                  how is working and UBI break even. You get the ubi if you work or don't work. If you think you can live high on the hog at 12k/year more power to you. If you want more than that you have to work. Pretty simple. I have no clue how working is "breakeven", you're obviously working for money like everyone else does.

                  What minimum wage is good? 7.25/hr? how did we come up with that? 7.25/hr is really 30k/year right?

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Turf Doc View Post

                    Andrew Yang came up with 1k/month, Im not sure if anyone actually asked him why he decided 1k/mo but thats something i was wondering too... Im sure i could be convinced around 1k give or take but i havent put that much thought into it. I think it will contribute positively to the economy because most people blow whatever money they have. Without credit cards im sure our economy would be smaller.
                    Giving people money to blow would stimulate the economy in the short run for sure. But I don't think we would like a long-term consequences. This seems like the type of thing that would grow and grow.

                    Also is that a good thing to propose? Giving everybody a bunch of money to blow on consumer goods? We do enough of that already in this country. We are utterly dependent on people buying every kind of trinket and crap that's out there. Upgrading everything faster than needed. Honestly I think it would do society in the world and the environment some good if people were forced to reuse and think about their purchases.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Lordosis View Post

                      Giving people money to blow would stimulate the economy in the short run for sure. But I don't think we would like a long-term consequences. This seems like the type of thing that would grow and grow.

                      Also is that a good thing to propose? Giving everybody a bunch of money to blow on consumer goods? We do enough of that already in this country. We are utterly dependent on people buying every kind of trinket and crap that's out there. Upgrading everything faster than needed. Honestly I think it would do society in the world and the environment some good if people were forced to reuse and think about their purchases.
                      I dont think it would grow and grow because were still dealing with a political system that hasn't increased the fed minimum wage in forever. Also this is just theoretical because i think we're more likely to see riots in the streets and looking like a 3rd world country than we are a UBI.

                      I think that even if it was just given it wouldnt be super different than thinking it was just like a sort of "raise", and I think most people's lives would be better if they had a raise. Especially at the lower ends

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                      • #71
                        i thought the concept of UBI was giving people money but eliminating the various benefit programs at the same time. is that no longer the case?

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Turf Doc View Post

                          Andrew Yang came up with 1k/month, Im not sure if anyone actually asked him why he decided 1k/mo but thats something i was wondering too... Im sure i could be convinced around 1k give or take but i havent put that much thought into it. I think it will contribute positively to the economy because most people blow whatever money they have. Without credit cards im sure our economy would be smaller.
                          I'd argue that Andrew Yang didn't put any more thought into it than you did. The proposal that giving exactly one thousand dollars, every thirty days, per person being the solution to improving poverty in America is ridiculous. Was there even any serious calculation that went into coming up with that specific dollar amount and that specific frequency of distribution? $1,000.00 / month is a pretty package, easy to sell, easy to remember by voters. "He clearly cares and wants to help."

                          As mentioned above by several posters, one can have good intentions and still suggest pretty poor solutions. Just take a scroll through the virtue-signaling warriors of Twitter for some examples.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post
                            i thought the concept of UBI was giving people money but eliminating the various benefit programs at the same time. is that no longer the case?
                            Can't remember what andrew yang's thoughts were but believe there are some more right-leaning thinkers who believe that. personally i think its reasonable - if you make enough with an extra 12k that you no longer qualify for benefits, you dont get benefits

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Huggy View Post

                              I'd argue that Andrew Yang didn't put any more thought into it than you did. The proposal that giving exactly one thousand dollars, every thirty days, per person being the solution to improving poverty in America is ridiculous. Was there even any serious calculation that went into coming up with that specific dollar amount and that specific frequency of distribution? $1,000.00 / month is a pretty package, easy to sell, easy to remember by voters. "He clearly cares and wants to help."

                              As mentioned above by several posters, one can have good intentions and still suggest pretty poor solutions. Just take a scroll through the virtue-signaling warriors of Twitter for some examples.
                              He have picked a different number just to make it look like there was some math behind the choice!

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Huggy View Post

                                I'd argue that Andrew Yang didn't put any more thought into it than you did. The proposal that giving exactly one thousand dollars, every thirty days, per person being the solution to improving poverty in America is ridiculous. Was there even any serious calculation that went into coming up with that specific dollar amount and that specific frequency of distribution? $1,000.00 / month is a pretty package, easy to sell, easy to remember by voters. "He clearly cares and wants to help."

                                As mentioned above by several posters, one can have good intentions and still suggest pretty poor solutions. Just take a scroll through the virtue-signaling warriors of Twitter for some examples.
                                do you think your average person would be better off without social security? and they keep the money they would have paid in SS taxes

                                Comment

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