Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Fair wages for employees

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Lordosis View Post

    The trouble I see with universal basic income is deciding at what level of income to provide? Specifically what type of lifestyle are you offering people that society is going to provide for them. If it is enough to live in a shack and eat bread and water most people would look for employment rather than live that sort of lifestyle. However I imagine our society would demand that it be on par with similar entitlements already in place and want to be able to maintain a middle class lifestyle. This would be totally impractical and I don't think people understand that.
    It sounds like if you imagine a really bad system of UBI, then it would be really bad. Imagine that!

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Turf Doc View Post

      Interesting, i had no clue inflation was built into the fee schedules. I mean personally im happy thats the case as someone who will be receiving those payments eventually.

      Wasn't aware anyone wanted to pay individuals differently based on their life circumstances... youre right the pay is related to their labor contribution, but also related to how desperate someone is to get a job. The latter is why you could have a very low wage and yet still make the employer a ton of money. I also agree its great that the min wage is irrelevant in many places right now but its not always going to be that way
      And so be it. If they are desperate that is their choice and circumstance. As for the comment about paying based on life circumstances that was regarding mandating or suggesting that employers pay a living wage. It’s an absurd suggestion.

      As for Thomas Sowell’s point regarding the real minimum wage, it looks like he keeps on ending up correct on that one:

      https://www.fox5ny.com/news/ibm-mcdo...ic-partnership

      Comment


      • #48
        Stockton California did a UBI of sorts and it was not bad. Not sure how it would scale, or if it would pass the test of time. I am sure like anything else, results will be all over the place in the real world.

        https://www.npr.org/2021/03/04/97365...ff-study-finds

        the labor market now for healthcare is really challenging now due to shortages, competition, vaccine mandates, and now fast food is offering more than we do for MAs and other front and back office positions.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Notsobad View Post
          Stockton California did a UBI of sorts and it was not bad. Not sure how it would scale, or if it would pass the test of time. I am sure like anything else, results will be all over the place in the real world.

          https://www.npr.org/2021/03/04/97365...ff-study-finds

          the labor market now for healthcare is really challenging now due to shortages, competition, vaccine mandates, and now fast food is offering more than we do for MAs and other front and back office positions.
          Ok the study was done by those who ran around getting donations to make this happen. This is like a drug company conducting a research study - it should be rejected or highly questionable on its face. They also don’t do any statistical analysis. They just say “experimental group went from X to Y and control group went from A to B”.

          Also, I don’t think this was taxpayer funded. I have a major problem giving people helicopter cash from my income, because lord knows politicians won’t ask all of us to pay equally into it. And I’ll be willing to throw down a bet right now - where UBI shows any hint of failure or marginal results it’s proponents will say (as Thomas Sowell alleges) “it just wasn’t enough time, it just wasn’t enough money”. I will also bet that if UBI in any form came to pass that politicians would not remove the other safety net benefits. No thanks.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Turf Doc View Post
            I like the idea of a UBI a lot.
            I told myself i would not do this and i probably shouldn’t.
            Waste of ATP.

            But here goes. One small analogy.

            Turf Doc. You think UBI is good idea.

            It will require taking from some who earn more (talent / effort / luck / hard work / tenacity) and giving to those who earn less.

            You are a medical student?

            When you were in high school trying to get into a good college you probably had better grades than some classmates (talent / hard work / luck / tenacity).

            Would you be in favor of taking some points off your SAT and GPA and giving some to the C student to help him get into a state university?

            What if you studied weekends and holidays while you know he did not?

            What if they took some from you and just wasted it and he never got any benefits but you now had a significantly lower GPA and SAT score.

            Is this a good plan?

            Is this a great idea?

            Try to achieve equal outcomes by redistribution?

            How hard is he likely to study if he knows he will likely get a boost from you if he struggles? Does that incentivize him to study?

            What does it do for you? If you know that any grade above a B will be reduced to a B, would you try hard for an A to then watch it get reduced?



            Do some people need help? Do people get sick, unlucky? Sure.

            Should we help them? Absolutely.

            Is there a lot of waste? Do we need UBI in addition to the other programs?

            When i was a medical student i wanted to save the world. Thought we should use tax dollars to help everyone and fix everything.

            Did not appreciate the waste and futility of many programs, and i personally had not earned any wealth that could be redistributed.

            The old rich guys seemed to have more than they needed and seemed selfish.

            Now at almost 50 I have worked really hard to save and invest. I worked nights/weekends/holidays and drove a civic for over 20 years. Frugality, hard work, luck, and now i have less potential energy (human capital = ability to earn = youth) and more wealth.

            When you start paying big bills and paying off loans and making $ that is heavily taxed you might feel differently about UBI.

            Or you might not.

            Either way, the book offer stands. Worth a read, even just to know what the other side is thinking even if you think it is rubbish from a fool.
            Last edited by Tangler; 10-31-2021, 04:45 AM.

            Comment


            • #51
              I think a problem is that whenever ubi or social programs are brought up it’s just unknown how much assistance they get/need and how much the tippy top needs to contribute. I do agree it’s potentially a slippery slope and difficult to implement properly.

              In your grade/school example if I had a 20,000 gpa and they would take some points away to get another person into a community college or trade school while at the same time doesn’t take away any opportunities from me, it doesn’t bother me at all. It’s not taking my A and giving me a B. It’s taking my A+++ to an A++.

              Am I frustrated at waste, laziness, corruption? Absolutely. Instead of disliking the waste of capital and money on trying to help people, what about the billions and trillions wasted elsewhere like the military? I’d rather waste my tax dollars on trying to help people than destruction.

              I don’t think ubi is needed right now. It would help some people a lot and others would take advantage of it just like any other program. I think it would be more needed once technology eliminates more jobs than created.

              In the end, ones denying you/others and your hard work how you deserve a great life.

              Comment


              • #52
                Chicago just started another “test project”. There have been a lot of “tests”. If the tests had panned out (self sustaining is benefits > cost) then the tests would have become permanent and proliferated.

                Education is another expample. Gates has spent billions! High quality teachers, paid double and given great facilities and small classes! What could go wrong? It didn’t move the needle. A lot of private money down the drain with great intentions and unintended damage for some projects.

                https://www.washingtonpost.com/educa...-do-just-that/

                Short version: It’s harder than they thought. Money doesn’t solve the problem. Photo types of UBI and can’t fail education projects have failed. Certainly individuals benefited, not enough to support continuation.
                If it did, individuals and states would be all over it.
                Urban schools would be the Gates Model and all the residents would be on UBI and kicking a$$ and taking names.

                Everyone acts like these are “new ideas”. Most have long histories and are repackaged and recycled. Previous versions haven’t produced as expected and been dropped.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Who are we all kidding BTW? Democrats are trying to instill a child tax credit that’s effectively UBI, but as stated above they aren’t eliminating ANY social safety net programs - in fact, they are expanding them. What’s more, they are using disingenuous accounting and only charging the costs for a year or two so the 10 year price tag looks more palatable when they know that the majority of politicians won’t have the stones to unwind it. The road to serfdom indeed.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Freakonomics does good podcast on UBI worth a listen...

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Tangler View Post
                      I told myself i would not do this and i probably shouldn’t.
                      Waste of ATP.

                      But here goes. One small analogy.

                      Turf Doc. You think UBI is good idea.

                      It will require taking from some who earn more (talent / effort / luck / hard work / tenacity) and giving to those who earn less.

                      You are a medical student?

                      When you were in high school trying to get into a good college you probably had better grades than some classmates (talent / hard work / luck / tenacity).

                      Would you be in favor of taking some points off your SAT and GPA and giving some to the C student to help him get into a state university?

                      What if you studied weekends and holidays while you know he did not?

                      What if they took some from you and just wasted it and he never got any benefits but you now had a significantly lower GPA and SAT score.

                      Is this a good plan?

                      Is this a great idea?

                      Try to achieve equal outcomes by redistribution?

                      How hard is he likely to study if he knows he will likely get a boost from you if he struggles? Does that incentivize him to study?

                      What does it do for you? If you know that any grade above a B will be reduced to a B, would you try hard for an A to then watch it get reduced?



                      Do some people need help? Do people get sick, unlucky? Sure.

                      Should we help them? Absolutely.

                      Is there a lot of waste? Do we need UBI in addition to the other programs?

                      When i was a medical student i wanted to save the world. Thought we should use tax dollars to help everyone and fix everything.

                      Did not appreciate the waste and futility of many programs, and i personally had not earned any wealth that could be redistributed.

                      The old rich guys seemed to have more than they needed and seemed selfish.

                      Now at almost 50 I have worked really hard to save and invest. I worked nights/weekends/holidays and drove a civic for over 20 years. Frugality, hard work, luck, and now i have less potential energy (human capital = ability to earn = youth) and more wealth.

                      When you start paying big bills and paying off loans and making $ that is heavily taxed you might feel differently about UBI.

                      Or you might not.

                      Either way, the book offer stands. Worth a read, even just to know what the other side is thinking even if you think it is rubbish from a fool.
                      this kind of argument blatantly ignores real world examples. we have progressive tax rates now, do bezos and musk stop accumulating? I haven't seen them pick up their ball and go home and say, " You know what, I have enough."

                      n reality they are effectively regressive given the plethora of deductions and accounting gimmicks we permit with business and investment income. I would change your example to say that it's not reducing your A to a B, it's reducing your 100 to a 99.9 so that 10000 other D students can survive.

                      I'm not a fan of UBI but as nysoz says we are clearly heading for a world with substantially less labor requirements. We will have to do something about it. There will likely be further wealth inequality. This is the kind of preventative thinking that we need to address poverty and actually save us money long term instead of huffing and puffing and saying " OMG how can we pay people to sit around." Well you are going to pay when they show up in the ED with half the foot eroded away by osteo and needing dialysis, or you can maybe pay more upfront to stop them from getting there and maybe living somewhat like a human in the meantime.

                      the current system is clearly not sustainable and will not work in the future. there can only be so many drone mechanics. Some sort of baseline security blanket/subsidy like UBI is basically a certainty. The discussion should be about the optimal ways to structure it.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Panscan View Post

                        this kind of argument blatantly ignores real world examples. we have progressive tax rates now, do bezos and musk stop accumulating? I haven't seen them pick up their ball and go home and say, " You know what, I have enough."

                        n reality they are effectively regressive given the plethora of deductions and accounting gimmicks we permit with business and investment income. I would change your example to say that it's not reducing your A to a B, it's reducing your 100 to a 99.9 so that 10000 other D students can survive.

                        I'm not a fan of UBI but as nysoz says we are clearly heading for a world with substantially less labor requirements. We will have to do something about it. There will likely be further wealth inequality. This is the kind of preventative thinking that we need to address poverty and actually save us money long term instead of huffing and puffing and saying " OMG how can we pay people to sit around." Well you are going to pay when they show up in the ED with half the foot eroded away by osteo and needing dialysis, or you can maybe pay more upfront to stop them from getting there and maybe living somewhat like a human in the meantime.

                        the current system is clearly not sustainable and will not work in the future. there can only be so many drone mechanics. Some sort of baseline security blanket/subsidy like UBI is basically a certainty. The discussion should be about the optimal ways to structure it.
                        I think you have clearly identified the problem. The question is the solution, That is the debate, More money or redistribution of money has so far been shown to be ineffective is the counter argument. A (admittedly poor example) was the industrial revolution (rural vs urban populations). Farmers were not allowed to stay in place and receive government UBI. The population itself changed. People that were raised or lived on a farm sought education and moved. The obvious counter argument was farm subsidies. The purpose of those were intended not for the rural residents, it was to assure a food supply for the expanded urban areas.

                        As far as the "You know what, I have enough" argument, using taxes for redistribution has had significant effects you choose to ignore. Companies moving manufacturing overseas and to other states, individuals (uber wealthy) relocating with significant impact where they left.

                        I hear your emotional argument, but the billion dollar question is will it actually work..
                        I previously linked where Gates spent a billion and now is skeptical. It didn't pan out as expected. Money didn't solve the problem. Magnet schools is another (very high cost per student).
                        https://www.businessinsider.com/bill...failure-2018-6
                        Motivation and opportunity are more important than simply adding money to someone's pocket. Rarely fixes the problem.

                        Public housing assistance is another example. First massive high density structures. Those created an unfavorable dangerous environment. Then subsidized subdivisions. The government requirement for liberal lending. Now we want to subsidize and place low cost housing in the "best neighborhoods" with the theory that living in the same location and amenities that the residents "will absorb" the values and succeed.

                        The assumption that money will motivate and lead to prevention of "showing up in the ED with half the foot eroded away by osteo and needing dialysis, or you can maybe pay more upfront to stop them from getting there and maybe living somewhat like a human in the meantime" does not seem to pan out. The patient does not respond to the preventive measures. Motivation and desire of the population is fickle. You have no data that this will work. Most data actually shows it does not.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Tangler View Post
                          I told myself i would not do this and i probably shouldn’t.
                          Waste of ATP.

                          But here goes. One small analogy.

                          Turf Doc. You think UBI is good idea.

                          It will require taking from some who earn more (talent / effort / luck / hard work / tenacity) and giving to those who earn less.

                          You are a medical student?

                          When you were in high school trying to get into a good college you probably had better grades than some classmates (talent / hard work / luck / tenacity).

                          Would you be in favor of taking some points off your SAT and GPA and giving some to the C student to help him get into a state university?

                          What if you studied weekends and holidays while you know he did not?

                          What if they took some from you and just wasted it and he never got any benefits but you now had a significantly lower GPA and SAT score.

                          Is this a good plan?

                          Is this a great idea?

                          Try to achieve equal outcomes by redistribution?

                          How hard is he likely to study if he knows he will likely get a boost from you if he struggles? Does that incentivize him to study?

                          What does it do for you? If you know that any grade above a B will be reduced to a B, would you try hard for an A to then watch it get reduced?



                          Do some people need help? Do people get sick, unlucky? Sure.

                          Should we help them? Absolutely.

                          Is there a lot of waste? Do we need UBI in addition to the other programs?

                          When i was a medical student i wanted to save the world. Thought we should use tax dollars to help everyone and fix everything.

                          Did not appreciate the waste and futility of many programs, and i personally had not earned any wealth that could be redistributed.

                          The old rich guys seemed to have more than they needed and seemed selfish.

                          Now at almost 50 I have worked really hard to save and invest. I worked nights/weekends/holidays and drove a civic for over 20 years. Frugality, hard work, luck, and now i have less potential energy (human capital = ability to earn = youth) and more wealth.

                          When you start paying big bills and paying off loans and making $ that is heavily taxed you might feel differently about UBI.

                          Or you might not.

                          Either way, the book offer stands. Worth a read, even just to know what the other side is thinking even if you think it is rubbish from a fool.
                          we're actually kindred spirits because i cant help but respond too

                          i have a couple issues with the analogy...

                          Assuming it was 12k/year, that's nowhere near "equal outcome" so I make 412k and the median is 42k? Still a large delta.

                          In the gpa/sat example, it wouldn't be "significantly less", it would be like a 2200 to a 2180 which wouldn't matter, although getting a higher SAT/GPA doesnt matter nearly as much as cash in the bank for most people so i dont love the analogy. It most certainly would not be an A to a B even in the analogy

                          If someone was floating a 60k UBI then i would completely agree with you, there would just be too many unintended consequences even though the goal might be admirable. But its 12k, for example, and i do believe that would lift some out of poverty so they would not need as many state/fed benefits, it would stimulate the economy, etc

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Panscan View Post

                            this kind of argument blatantly ignores real world examples. we have progressive tax rates now, do bezos and musk stop accumulating? I haven't seen them pick up their ball and go home and say, " You know what, I have enough."

                            n reality they are effectively regressive given the plethora of deductions and accounting gimmicks we permit with business and investment income. I would change your example to say that it's not reducing your A to a B, it's reducing your 100 to a 99.9 so that 10000 other D students can survive.

                            I'm not a fan of UBI but as nysoz says we are clearly heading for a world with substantially less labor requirements. We will have to do something about it. There will likely be further wealth inequality. This is the kind of preventative thinking that we need to address poverty and actually save us money long term instead of huffing and puffing and saying " OMG how can we pay people to sit around." Well you are going to pay when they show up in the ED with half the foot eroded away by osteo and needing dialysis, or you can maybe pay more upfront to stop them from getting there and maybe living somewhat like a human in the meantime.

                            the current system is clearly not sustainable and will not work in the future. there can only be so many drone mechanics. Some sort of baseline security blanket/subsidy like UBI is basically a certainty. The discussion should be about the optimal ways to structure it.
                            So you are a resident? Want a book? I will buy you one too. No? Ok, like I said, waste of ATP on my part. Have a nice weekend.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Turf Doc View Post

                              we're actually kindred spirits because i cant help but respond too

                              i have a couple issues with the analogy...

                              Assuming it was 12k/year, that's nowhere near "equal outcome" so I make 412k and the median is 42k? Still a large delta.

                              In the gpa/sat example, it wouldn't be "significantly less", it would be like a 2200 to a 2180 which wouldn't matter, although getting a higher SAT/GPA doesnt matter nearly as much as cash in the bank for most people so i dont love the analogy. It most certainly would not be an A to a B even in the analogy

                              If someone was floating a 60k UBI then i would completely agree with you, there would just be too many unintended consequences even though the goal might be admirable. But its 12k, for example, and i do believe that would lift some out of poverty so they would not need as many state/fed benefits, it would stimulate the economy, etc
                              Have a good weekend.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Turf Doc View Post

                                we're actually kindred spirits because i cant help but respond too

                                i have a couple issues with the analogy...

                                Assuming it was 12k/year, that's nowhere near "equal outcome" so I make 412k and the median is 42k? Still a large delta.

                                In the gpa/sat example, it wouldn't be "significantly less", it would be like a 2200 to a 2180 which wouldn't matter, although getting a higher SAT/GPA doesnt matter nearly as much as cash in the bank for most people so i dont love the analogy. It most certainly would not be an A to a B even in the analogy

                                If someone was floating a 60k UBI then i would completely agree with you, there would just be too many unintended consequences even though the goal might be admirable. But its 12k, for example, and i do believe that would lift some out of poverty so they would not need as many state/fed benefits, it would stimulate the economy, etc
                                Would you go for 50% of that? $30k (2080 hrs a year) per year? That's $14,82 per hour excluding any payroll tax or benefits. Throw in sick pay, healthcare and the leave stuff and the "minimum wage" required is getting closer to the $60k. No skills required, just show up.
                                We are almost there.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X