Fair wages for employees

[Nysoz]

Sorry for cluttering up the other thread. Will just start a new one to keep threads on topic.

I agree the government shouldn’t mandate everything. I’m more wishing it was culturally the norm to keep up employee pay rather than concentrate near the top.

The problem is that now we get these gaps in employment. Fewer people are wanting to work these minimum wage jobs or for less than they think they’re worth.

Nurses are leaving their position due to travelers getting paid 3x as much as they are for doing the same job. You have some units where travelers are orienting other travelers since all the staff have left for other traveling positions.

As technology changes our lives it’s going to disrupt the job industry. There’s no more factory workers and it’s replaced with robots. Things that took people hours to do are replaced with lines of coding. AI and autonomy are going to eliminate a lot of trucking jobs in the distant future. Some jobs will be eliminated and some will be created.

I’d argue that sooner or later there will end up being some sort of ubi due to not needing as many people working in the future.

[Turf Doc]

I like the idea of a UBI a lot. It might obviate the need for a higher minimum wage.

I wonder if we almost saw how a UBI might work with the expanded unemployment benefits. People were pickier about their jobs because they didn’t NEED them and wages were forced to come up because there was a labor shortage. Clearly need to figure out what’s high enough to be useful but not so high people don’t literally need to work anymore.

I don’t really understand however why there’s still a labor shortage when there’s no more expanded unemployment. No way everyone was saving their cash.

[Larry Ragman]

I like the idea of a UBI a lot. It might obviate the need for a higher minimum wage.

I wonder if we almost saw how a UBI might work with the expanded unemployment benefits. People were pickier about their jobs because they didn’t NEED them and wages were forced to come up because there was a labor shortage. Clearly need to figure out what’s high enough to be useful but not so high people don’t literally need to work anymore.

I don’t really understand however why there’s still a labor shortage when there’s no more expanded unemployment. No way everyone was saving their cash.

I speculate that it is a shortage of appropriately skilled workers. Many millions might be willing to work but are not acceptable to employers, who in turn have shortages for coders, data analysts, etc. Amazon warehouses can only absorb so many unskilled workers.

[ENT Doc]

UBI - paying people to stay home. What could go wrong?

[Lordosis]

I speculate that it is a shortage of appropriately skilled workers. Many millions might be willing to work but are not acceptable to employers, who in turn have shortages for coders, data analysts, etc. Amazon warehouses can only absorb so many unskilled workers.

My understanding it is mostly unskilled positions that are open right now. At least in our health system the largest gaps are in janitorial food service and secretarial positions.

It is very anecdotal but when I speak with my patients that are business owners having a hard time finding work it seems to be cashiers and loader and unloader jobs that are hard to come by. Just this week I had somebody who has been struggling to find employees for starter positions because he can't compete with Amazon and Walmart who are paying upwards of 18-20 an hour for similar skilled positions.

[Larry Ragman]

My understanding it is mostly unskilled positions that are open right now. At least in our health system the largest gaps are in janitorial food service and secretarial positions.

It is very anecdotal but when I speak with my patients that are business owners having a hard time finding work it seems to be cashiers and loader and unloader jobs that are hard to come by. Just this week I had somebody who has been struggling to find employees for starter positions because he can't compete with Amazon and Walmart who are paying upwards of 18-20 an hour for similar skilled positions.

Oh, that is interesting. Low end getting priced out? It may eventually turn into a good thing as businesses learn to adapt, though it would then lead to raising prices for the customers.

[Lordosis]

Sorry for cluttering up the other thread. Will just start a new one to keep threads on topic.

I agree the government shouldn’t mandate everything. I’m more wishing it was culturally the norm to keep up employee pay rather than concentrate near the top.

The problem is that now we get these gaps in employment. Fewer people are wanting to work these minimum wage jobs or for less than they think they’re worth.

Nurses are leaving their position due to travelers getting paid 3x as much as they are for doing the same job. You have some units where travelers are orienting other travelers since all the staff have left for other traveling positions.

As technology changes our lives it’s going to disrupt the job industry. There’s no more factory workers and it’s replaced with robots. Things that took people hours to do are replaced with lines of coding. AI and autonomy are going to eliminate a lot of trucking jobs in the distant future. Some jobs will be eliminated and some will be created.

I’d argue that sooner or later there will end up being some sort of ubi due to not needing as many people working in the future.

The trouble I see with universal basic income is deciding at what level of income to provide? Specifically what type of lifestyle are you offering people that society is going to provide for them. If it is enough to live in a shack and eat bread and water most people would look for employment rather than live that sort of lifestyle. However I imagine our society would demand that it be on par with similar entitlements already in place and want to be able to maintain a middle class lifestyle. This would be totally impractical and I don't think people understand that.

[Lithium]

I think when we’ve had these discussions on what is a “fair” or living wage in the past, the responses are often revealing.

My recollection is the most popular response is that someone should be able to afford their own place with no roommates, should be able to afford their own vehicle (screw climate change), and they should have a smartphone.

That might sound pretty Spartan but that is still a better living standard than 99% of people who have lived in human history, including plenty of emperors who lived pretty well.

It sounds mean to say, but if people do not have professional skills, I am okay with them taking the bus, having roommates, and using the public library.

[Brains428]

As I sit in the airport, I just bought stuff from one of those magazine/snack shops and there was no cashier in site. Just 5 self checkout lines.

The problem with business people running healthcare is that they're trying to maintain profits rather than take care of patients. This incentivizes capital efficiency, rather than realizing the necessity to reduce margins to maintain not only adequate staffing, but expertise. Staffing shortages occur and then excess pay has to be doled out to maintain adequate staffing. While some of that staff may be good, a bunch of them simply fulfill base requirements and are there simply for the money. No loyalty to the hospital or patient base, but simply there to make a buck.

Anyways... not sure about the UBI thing. I'd be more about re-introducing the trades into high school or even middle school to funnel people into other work. Base minimum wage should be raised. There should be no alternative minimum wage for restaurants and the like. Simply eliminate tipping and pay people fairly.

Things that would make stuff more affordable- higher interest rates. You eliminate companies that simply run on credits rather than profits. Massive real estate buying by VC gets slowed. ************************, even healthcare consolidation would slow (how many of these PE backed ventures have terrible credit ratings).

[FIREshrink]

I like the idea of a UBI a lot. It might obviate the need for a higher minimum wage.

I wonder if we almost saw how a UBI might work with the expanded unemployment benefits. People were pickier about their jobs because they didn’t NEED them and wages were forced to come up because there was a labor shortage. Clearly need to figure out what’s high enough to be useful but not so high people don’t literally need to work anymore.

I don’t really understand however why there’s still a labor shortage when there’s no more expanded unemployment. No way everyone was saving their cash.

The average bank account in some reports was 25% higher in 2021 than in 2020. Even low wage workers have substantially more cash today than they did last year. This has given them more purchasing power and the ability to be more selective about work.

The degree to which we just threw cash at people last year was unprecedented. We're just starting to understand the consequences of that.

[Nysoz]

My definition of basic necessities are food and shelter. Doesn’t have to be glamorous but the basics. Yes they can take the bus to the library for internet to look for meaningful work if they want. Maybe they need roommates and if they want to live alone they would need to get an additional job to pay for it. This would keep people and kids from going hungry or homeless issues but also incentivize people to work for a better/middle class life.

Ubi may or may not be the right answer, but I think it would be further on down the road when there’s less jobs available. Basically when everything is automated so there’s no more unskilled labor jobs available. Roombas clean all the floors. Weird Tesla bots emptying trash. Drones delivering packages to doors. Go to Taco Bell and order at a kiosk, pay in Bitcoin, then the food is made by a robot and dropped out of a chute no humans needed.

If we ever get to a Jetsons future and there’s not enough jobs to go around something would need to be done for the population at large.

[wa2106]

This was the worry in the industrial revolution as well - listened to a good podcast on planet money about the Luddites storming factory because machines were going to take their jobs. Apparently that was a real concern then as well - there would be no more jobs. Similar concerns now due to technological disruption.

May go through transition period to different jobs (could be in it right now actually) which is usually filled with social unrest. Then we pop out other side with newer, better, different jobs. People adapt.

UBI seems reasonable though if we ever get to the point where there are literally too few jobs for number of people. But that's not the case now or anytime in near future.

[Turf Doc]

The average bank account in some reports was 25% higher in 2021 than in 2020. Even low wage workers have substantially more cash today than they did last year. This has given them more purchasing power and the ability to be more selective about work.

The degree to which we just threw cash at people last year was unprecedented. We're just starting to understand the consequences of that.

that's very interesting, not what I expected at all. Good for them! I'm guessing the cash must've come from unemployment because the stimulus checks were pretty pathetic if you think about it

[Turf Doc]

The trouble I see with universal basic income is deciding at what level of income to provide? Specifically what type of lifestyle are you offering people that society is going to provide for them. If it is enough to live in a shack and eat bread and water most people would look for employment rather than live that sort of lifestyle. However I imagine our society would demand that it be on par with similar entitlements already in place and want to be able to maintain a middle class lifestyle. This would be totally impractical and I don't think people understand that.

I don't think UBI advocates are looking for a middle class lifestyle... Andrew Yang for example called for 1k/month. Maybe some are ok living on 12k a year but I have to imagine that would be a tiny minority. And even then people thought the idea was insane

I don't think the point at all is to provide some sort of decent lifestyle without needing to work, that would obviously be a terrible idea. But 12k/year to take the edge off would be huge for a LOT of people in the country

[CordMcNally]

The problem is that now we get these gaps in employment. Fewer people are wanting to work these minimum wage jobs or for less than they think they’re worth.

Who's wrong in this situation? The businesses or the people that can't seem to find a job with so many people hiring?

Nurses are leaving their position due to travelers getting paid 3x as much as they are for doing the same job. You have some units where travelers are orienting other travelers since all the staff have left for other traveling positions.

This will shake itself out in a year or two. Hospitals will not be paying these high rates for nurses long term. All they need is a bit of time and it'll be closer to normal.