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  • #31
    OP - you may want to work on your internet sarcasm meter. It may be an indicator of perception of people's overall comments too.

    That said, today's society has become more polarized than ever and the amount of intolerance to a differing point of view is palpable -- the 'if you're not with me, you're against me and hence are evil and must resign immediately' response has moved from the fringes into mainstream. We used to 'call out our crazies'. Now we give them a megaphone and nod in agreement.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by StarTrekDoc View Post
      OP - you may want to work on your internet sarcasm meter. It may be an indicator of perception of people's overall comments too.

      That said, today's society has become more polarized than ever and the amount of intolerance to a differing point of view is palpable -- the 'if you're not with me, you're against me and hence are evil and must resign immediately' response has moved from the fringes into mainstream. We used to 'call out our crazies'. Now we give them a megaphone and nod in agreement.
      These kind of sentiments have ebbed and flowed for decades ever since mass media made people more “informed “ nothing new

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      • #33
        Originally posted by nastle View Post

        Allowed to have an opinion is one thing , preaching it to others pretending your opinion is informed is quite another
        Ah, ok that makes sense and I'd agree. Most of the time we don't know what we don't know. Or we don't know what someone else doesn't know.

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        • #34
          I think many doctors were always the “smart one” growing up and got a lot of positive feedback for that and learned to base their self esteem on being right. And then you spend excessive amounts of time in your 20s/early 30s with other similar people where everyone is smart and needs to be right and it just reinforces that need/behavior.

          I remember a friend who always got along with everyone telling me in my 20s “it’s better to be happy than right.” I think she was probably hinting that I was being too opinionated but it took me another 15-20 years to realize that she was right.

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          • #35
            Absolutely - but there is a rationale behind this which may explain why it is the case: physicians grow up in an environment where they study and train for years, predominately in a hierarchical environment, mainly memorizing mountains of data/facts to regurgitate on standardized exams. Then during residency/fellowship, they move from straight memorizing to partly synthesizing their learned facts into algorithms for patient care (whether its surgery, where you learn to perform a certain skill over and over again, medicine where you follow UpToDate algorithms, or radiology where you learn pattern recognition in imaging). Even so, there is not much critical thinking (aka novel thinking, having original ideas etc) that ever takes place in the entire education process of a physician.

            Now of course not everyone is an automaton, but many are. Critical thinking is a process where you have to deliberately take in facts, even those which you may not agree with, utilize Bayesian reasoning to weigh the pros/cons of each, and arrive at a reasonable conclusion given the objective data. This is much more prevalent in other fields like computer science, physics, and mathematics, where you develop original ideas using past learned material.

            I believe the strong opinions that some docs have is mainly due to this lack of critical thinking process, which results in making permanent their implied assumptions about various topics (which may have had an incorrect assertion to begin with, but was never questioned). This, combined with the fact that docs are so good at memorizing and were usually top of their class adds to the intrinsic haughtiness which some may possess. I don't mean to be harsh - I'm strictly looking at it from a psychological/epistemic standpoint.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by nastle View Post

              These kind of sentiments have ebbed and flowed for decades ever since mass media made people more “informed “ nothing new
              Mass media outlets not so much an issue as the amount of disinformation and allowing oneself to be subjugated to single point of view discussions and not listening and willingness to have a discussion.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by xraygoggles View Post
                Absolutely - but there is a rationale behind this which may explain why it is the case: physicians grow up in an environment where they study and train for years, predominately in a hierarchical environment, mainly memorizing mountains of data/facts to regurgitate on standardized exams. Then during residency/fellowship, they move from straight memorizing to partly synthesizing their learned facts into algorithms for patient care (whether its surgery, where you learn to perform a certain skill over and over again, medicine where you follow UpToDate algorithms, or radiology where you learn pattern recognition in imaging). Even so, there is not much critical thinking (aka novel thinking, having original ideas etc) that ever takes place in the entire education process of a physician.

                Now of course not everyone is an automaton, but many are. Critical thinking is a process where you have to deliberately take in facts, even those which you may not agree with, utilize Bayesian reasoning to weigh the pros/cons of each, and arrive at a reasonable conclusion given the objective data. This is much more prevalent in other fields like computer science, physics, and mathematics, where you develop original ideas using past learned material.

                I believe the strong opinions that some docs have is mainly due to this lack of critical thinking process, which results in making permanent their implied assumptions about various topics (which may have had an incorrect assertion to begin with, but was never questioned). This, combined with the fact that docs are so good at memorizing and were usually top of their class adds to the intrinsic haughtiness which some may possess. I don't mean to be harsh - I'm strictly looking at it from a psychological/epistemic standpoint.
                Oh I don't know every surgery that starts to go wrong requires some critical thinking to get the desired outcome.

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                • #38
                  Very fascinating and insightful thread - I feel like a fly on the wall.
                  Our passion is protecting clients and others from predatory and ignorant advisors. Fox & Co CPAs, Fox & Co Wealth Mgmt. 270-247-6087

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Hatton View Post

                    Oh I don't know every surgery that starts to go wrong requires some critical thinking to get the desired outcome.
                    Sure, but after a while you've seen all the ways it can go wrong and what to do in those instances. Obviously each situation is unique, but there is enough similarity that you can go a long way with just experience and memory.

                    Definitely agree with xraygoggles in that there isn't a whole lot of critical thinking necessary to be a good doc. In fact, a lot of the time I hear examples of people using critical thinking, it is to solve a problem that has already been solved, but they just weren't familiar with the solution. If they just had more knowledge or the literature or more experience, they would have just known the solution.
                    Last edited by AR; 10-23-2021, 07:17 PM.

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                    • #40
                      The lack of critical thinking and insane amounts of straight memorization have definitely been a bit disappointing to me in med school

                      That said, so far none of my classmates seem like theyre too opinionated on much. Kinda boring in fact... maybe itll change by the time theyre attendings?

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post
                        seldom wrong never in doubt
                        I believe that is
                        "Often in error, never in doubt"

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by afan View Post

                          I believe that is
                          "Often in error, never in doubt"
                          that’s not what my surgery attending said

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by afan View Post

                            I believe that is
                            "Often in error, never in doubt"
                            Ha very on brand for this thread

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                            • #44
                              I not opinionated, I'm usually just right.

                              I think it is quite difficult to turn it off, as a Physician I get paid to give my opinion all day long. Learning when to turn it off in a non clinical environment or at home is a skill which I am still working on.

                              Many here are highly motivated intelligent people, who are good at a lot of different aspects of life. But this does not translate into to being good at everything or even having a good opinion about everything.

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                              • #45
                                We have seen what happens to doctors who think they are experts on everything when they get into aviation and think they can pilot a single engine plane through low lying clouds despite flying once a month. They often don't end up being as great as they thought they were and underestimate just how difficult what they view as an easy task compared to their day jobs is.

                                I have a colleague who literally told me, "I am a better investor than warren buffet," and wasn't joking.

                                He 'invests' exclusively in nanocap biotech stocks trading in the $1 range. Has explained to me why index investing is for idiots and why he will make so much more money than me. He tragically convinced numerous office staff to move their 401k funds to this crap.

                                Ironically he posts far left, tax the rich, woke stuff on facebook ad nauseum (he is a trust funder). He is also the world's foremost expert on covid and vaccines.

                                In love with himself basically. Not surprisingly, he deviates from standard of care often, thinking he knows better than the guidelines. Wouldn't let him treat my pet guinea pig.

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