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  • Originally posted by braindoc View Post
    curious to know what you all think about going to Disney World. I would say <5 % of park attendees are wearing masks these days. If you're vaccinated would you go despite not knowing people's vaccination status? It is mostly outdoors after all.
    I’m not a Disney world fan at baseline. But a friend who is went last month and said food had to be ordered way in advance and many of the food options were closed, to the point that she couldn’t even get a bottle of water on a whim (only advance orders). I think this probably has to do with the worker shortage. I don’t know if that has improved or not but she loves Disney and did not have a great time. Based on that alone I probably would wait until next year/until things smooth out.

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    • braindoc - I have friends who are big Disney fans current at wdw as we speak. They are all fully vaccinated and live their lives without restrictions and very own choice folk. That said, they did feel somewhat uncomfortable with the total lack of mask wearing. It's hot and humid and only truly hard commited folk would tolerate a mask and they texted on what to do while there since already in the world. I basically said the largest risk is indoor dining and slow rides with bunches of people for sustained times (small world, and indoor shows and lion king show).

      The food situation has largely improved since reopening. Disneyland had this issue for the first month of reopening. We went memorial day and again jun 12 weekend just before the reopening. Food delivery was near normal by the 12th. Options are almost normal now with many walk up options including our favorite...cookie num nums 🥳
      I would personally stay away during the hot months if you're not a Disney fan. We are scheduled for labor day weekend and again boogie nights on oct 30 for Disneyland 🤙.



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      • Originally posted by braindoc View Post
        curious to know what you all think about going to Disney World. I would say <5 % of park attendees are wearing masks these days. If you're vaccinated would you go despite not knowing people's vaccination status? It is mostly outdoors after all.
        I'm vaccinated and I go about my business like usual. That's the whole point of getting vaccinated. If you're vaccinated and still letting COVID significantly alter your life then your life will likely never go back to what it once was.

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        • Originally posted by Tim View Post
          Funny you should mention those two. Fauci just expressed his view basically that smallpox and polio would still be present if vaccine resistance was the same as Covid.
          I wasn't around during that time but I strongly suspect politics were not near involved as they are now.

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          • Originally posted by ENT Doc View Post
            Interesting discussion. I respect people’s freedom more than most but this is an externality issue. I don’t see good evidence to suggest that adults are at greater risk of being vaccinated than getting COVID. I think there’s an argument to be made re: kids not getting vaccinated - we just don’t have info on this yet (<12).
            Same. Libertarian by nature. At the same time, not going to stick my head in the sand either and ignore good foundatuon science and balance with experience and beliefs along with principles or common good and love thy neighbor.

            Vaccines aren't totally benign either. These mRNA vaccines jazzes up the immune system like the shingrix vaccine x10. I've had more than a few young ones,including one clinic LVN and an ICU rn have significant lad and myositis to the initial dose, so understand the hesitancy from younger lower risk generation on this and the balance that they have to strike....yet they stepped forward.

            That said, even if they are a nuclear family with absolutely no ties and exposures to at risk people, including older generation (only known real medical reason to defer vaccination) , I believe the risk is greater without the vaccine than with the vaccine to the common good.

            I believe we've lost a bit of that in today's world. That Kansas boy in 1942 really didn't need to step forward to fight Hitler, did he? What was the real risk to him to stand back and say....nope. not me. Not hurting me. He's good where he is and I'm good where I am.

            That is also how we've nearly eliminated polio by vaccine...via understanding that it's for the common good

            ​​​​​

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            • Originally posted by CordMcNally View Post

              I'm vaccinated and I go about my business like usual. That's the whole point of getting vaccinated. If you're vaccinated and still letting COVID significantly alter your life then your life will likely never go back to what it once was.
              Much of the comfort level will depend on what you are used to currently. Change makes folks uncomfortable. Every place has its own transition. Once politics take a hike, the people will still be different. Not just vaccines. I speculate that vaccines will lose their impact at some point. I could be wrong.

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              • Originally posted by ohehlo View Post
                https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-020-00789-5

                I'm not saying the vaccine is worse than the virus. I'm saying that it's complicated. ADE is real. If you don't know about it, read about it.

                Wear a mask for the rest of your life if you want. All the time. But don't expect anyone else to. It's a free country and hopefully it stays that way.
                I’m curious if you are on the front lines and have been caring for COVID patients since this began

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                • Originally posted by ohehlo View Post
                  https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-020-00789-5

                  I'm not saying the vaccine is worse than the virus. I'm saying that it's complicated. ADE is real. If you don't know about it, read about it.

                  Wear a mask for the rest of your life if you want. All the time. But don't expect anyone else to. It's a free country and hopefully it stays that way.
                  You’re kidding right? Upwards of 300 million doses of mRNA Covid vaccines have been given. It is one of the most widely given drugs in existence. If there is a signal to adverse reactions, we would see it (and have seen it for rare things like myocarditis). It is conclusively proven that illness, hospitalization, and death is way down in the vaccinated.

                  Being a skeptic is one thing. Playing Devils advocate between right and wrong is another.

                  If you are so incorrigibly selfish that something that 300 million people have taken to protect themselves, their family, and their society is too high risk for you, then GTFO of my society.

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                  • Originally posted by Bellescamp View Post

                    I’m curious if you are on the front lines and have been caring for COVID patients since this began
                    Good point. It's one thing if your not getting vaccinated just lead your death. Your choice. But if you get sick and then suck up money, resources and manpower(like a prolonged hospitalized) then that's no bueno:

                    https://www.yahoo.com/news/sister-ma...103803411.html

                    A Texas man who thought vaccines were "poison" died from COVID-19 after spending 17 days in hospital on a ventilator.
                    17 days of unnecessary resources for this person. Multiply this by thousands and thousands. Should firemen show up to put out your house fire cause you believed that dousing it with gasoline was a smart thing to do? Of course they will, but they shouldn't have to.

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                    • Originally posted by TheTodd View Post

                      You’re kidding right? Upwards of 300 million doses of mRNA Covid vaccines have been given. It is one of the most widely given drugs in existence. If there is a signal to adverse reactions, we would see it (and have seen it for rare things like myocarditis). It is conclusively proven that illness, hospitalization, and death is way down in the vaccinated.

                      Being a skeptic is one thing. Playing Devils advocate between right and wrong is another.

                      If you are so incorrigibly selfish that something that 300 million people have taken to protect themselves, their family, and their society is too high risk for you, then GTFO of my society.
                      Civil.

                      How many people already have antibodies to the virus? Why are we pushing them to get vaccinated? The virus ran its course here a year ago.

                      Yes front line. Had covid last year. Was fine like most people.

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                      • Originally posted by burritos View Post

                        Good point. It's one thing if your not getting vaccinated just lead your death. Your choice. But if you get sick and then suck up money, resources and manpower(like a prolonged hospitalized) then that's no bueno:

                        https://www.yahoo.com/news/sister-ma...103803411.html



                        17 days of unnecessary resources for this person. Multiply this by thousands and thousands. Should firemen show up to put out your house fire cause you believed that dousing it with gasoline was a smart thing to do? Of course they will, but they shouldn't have to.
                        Humor me just a bit. In society we require and prohibit behaviors. Those are “laws” (with punishments).
                        Dousing a fire with gasoline would be arson. Period. Misinformation, beliefs, individual choice? It doesn’t matter and ignorance of the law is no excuse.

                        What is implied is that vaccines show be required by law. Misinformation, beliefs, individual choice? It doesn’t matter and ignorance of the law is no excuse. Might as well say it. This behavior should be prohibited and punished. Is that where this is?

                        Next law to consider would eliminating wasted resources for 17 days treatment of anyone unvaccinated. It doesn’t matter and ignorance of the law is no excuse.

                        Six months with an EUA vaccine, should a law be passed with punishments? One must get vaccinated or removed as a danger to society? That seems to be the conclusion. I just don’t know the punishment. Unvaccinated camps to isolate or something more drastic.
                        We know the answer, but how to get there is problematic. Make it a law (FDA needs to be required to issue final approval immediately I guess) but what is the punishment for refusal?

                        This time vaccination is different. Of course there would be problems with this. It is not illegal to be ignorant. But the consensus is get vaccinated or face punishments. Right?

                        Just following the logic of pouring gas in the fire and wasted resources. Not realistic yet, but it seems the implied desired results.

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                        • Originally posted by ohehlo View Post
                          Haven't read the whole thread so not sure if everyone feels the opposite as me.

                          If you are vaccinated why do you care if anyone else is? Anyone who wants the vaccine can get it.

                          Children are not at risk from covid. The flu is much more dangerous to them.

                          I would rather expose my children to covid than any of the covid vaccines.

                          My flame suit is on but please stick to the evidence and not emotion.

                          While I'm at it masks are pretty useless, especially the cloth ones most people wear. It's especially dumb for people who have no symptoms. The chance of spreading a respiratory virus if you have no symptoms is almost 0.

                          And yes I'm a doctor. And all modesty aside, an extremely well trained one. I know my immunology and virology as well as anyone.

                          I'm sure many of you will jump at your keyboard to respond to this based on your comments on this thread. Keep it civil.
                          much of what you just posted is patently untrue. if you still believe it at this point despite being a doctor with impeccable training and wonderful understanding of virology/immunology, than something else is going on and no one here will change your mind.

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                          • Originally posted by ohehlo View Post
                            Also thank you everyone for being civil. I have to play devils advocate, it's my nature. It's important to hear dissenting opinions, how else can we learn.
                            I think the earth is flat and the moon is made of cheese, its important you hear my opinions, otherwise we'll never learn.

                            This is the quality you're bringing here, with terrible rhetoric on why your clearly wrong statements on a whole slew of topics should be heard. Sorry, they dont.

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                            • A majority of what we treat and sequela of such conditions are preventable- type 2 diabetes, CAD/CVD, liver disease, CKD, emphysema. We are supposed to be agnostic of what someone's beliefs are and lifestyle choices when they are presenting in need of care. So, no, we shouldn't refuse care to the unvaccinated.

                              Yes, it's frustrating. As I mentioned in another thread, I'm sitting in the epicenter of the Delta variant/unvaccinated combination. Hospital is full, no open beds in the ICU, and HCW are tired. But, we trudge on, hoping that tomorrow will be better.

                              Vaccine appointments are up for the area. Churches (who have a much larger influence than any government official here) have started participating in the effort.

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                              • Originally posted by burritos View Post

                                Good point. It's one thing if your not getting vaccinated just lead your death. Your choice. But if you get sick and then suck up money, resources and manpower(like a prolonged hospitalized) then that's no bueno:

                                https://www.yahoo.com/news/sister-ma...103803411.html



                                17 days of unnecessary resources for this person. Multiply this by thousands and thousands. Should firemen show up to put out your house fire cause you believed that dousing it with gasoline was a smart thing to do? Of course they will, but they shouldn't have to.
                                I agree it is wasted resources when it could have been preventable but not providing medical care because of wasted money and manpower is a slippery slope.

                                Should we stop treating people who injure themselves because they pursue dangerous activities like mountaineering, skydiving, skiing dangerous slopes, traverse arctics and Sahara and wilderness and so on. Or even stop giving chemo or RT or surgery to smokers since they knew the consequences and still continues to smoke. Many of these people have either no insurance, have Medicaid or they run out of insurance in the first few days of ICU and you and I bear those bills. If we regulate one unacceptable behavior we have to regulate them all.

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