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  • Originally posted by Panscan View Post

    eh mixed feelings. you also have to incentivize vaccination to get the neutral/on the fence people. If nothing about your life changes post vaccination in terms of behavior or ability to do stuff, there is little incentive (obviously excluding the health effects which aren't considered to be enough by a neutral person or they would have already gotten it)
    There are other incentives that could be provided. People are trying this. It's not clear how helpful those efforts are.

    There aren't any good solutions. However, my point is that encouraging people to vaccinate and still mask up isn't the worst idea in the world (I assume there are some Asian countries who are doing exactly this and pulling it off fine). Admittedly, it's not the best idea in the world either, for reasons that many here have pointed out.

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    • Yeah, i know, I agree, we are not in a great spot.

      Moron with gun? Manager should let the guy in, be nice, set him at a table, then call 911 and have the turd arrested.

      That is awful.

      But it is kinda apples and oranges isn’t it?

      My point was: A little incentive for the on the fence dude in his 20s-30s might work.

      The guy is probably pretty sick of masks and wants to go to the club / bar and hang out with girls.

      If you tell him the club no longer requires masks if you show proof of a vaccine, you actually get a free beer and some spicy chicken wings…….he might do it.

      If you tell him masks required for everyone regardless then he is a little less likely to get vaccinated and i would rather him have a vaccine than a mask that he pulls down to sip from his beer.

      Comment


      • As Tim pointed out - masking is not a cure - it slows the spread.

        Hence the reinstitution of it in LA County for indoors (highest spread risk). It makes sense to use blunt measures during a spike to slow things down. 2000 cases a day now in LA which was enjoying a 100/day level just before reopening.

        In California; if $1.5M lottery isn't going to get people to vaccinate with decent odds, little else will besides the personal experience of someone in their sphere going down or long hauler issues and becomes personal fear.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by MPMD View Post

          i completely agree that the "vaccine changes nothing" crowd were extremely unhelpful.

          this issue with this take is that it begs the question that restricting anything for the unvaccinated was ever on the table.

          they would show up, in fact they would show up heavily armed, and demand to be able to do whatever they wanted. in this they would have been overtly aided and encouraged by some of the most powerful people in the country.

          the question comes down to this: when a large (white) man with a handgun on his hip is screaming at the 18 year old girl at the hostess stand of the Applebees saying he'll do whatever he wants no matter what the law says, what do we as a society do?

          we've answered that definitively in the last 1.5 years: that man will do whatever he wants, free of consequences, and his terrorizing of vulnerable people will be celebrated by about 30-35% of the country as not only courageous but necessary. and if he ends up spreading his asx covid infection around and 5-10 people die as a direct result? what matters it?

          by the way: the man screaming at applebee's hostesses is an example from my own life, he posted about it on social media proudly (with pictures), and was celebrated by dozens of people in my hometown. for screaming at a college kid doing her job. we're not in a good spot.
          Just out of curiosity, what does the race of the ridiculous jerk have to do with anything?

          Would you have included that if he was of any other race?

          If i wrote a post that said “a large (race other than white) man” would you view this as racist?

          Sad. Guy is a turd, regardless of race.

          Don’t label a whole group by skin color please.

          “Judge by the content of character, rather than color of skin” MLK

          Think it over.
          Last edited by Tangler; 07-18-2021, 12:25 PM.

          Comment


          • Haven't read the whole thread so not sure if everyone feels the opposite as me.

            If you are vaccinated why do you care if anyone else is? Anyone who wants the vaccine can get it.

            Children are not at risk from covid. The flu is much more dangerous to them.

            I would rather expose my children to covid than any of the covid vaccines.

            My flame suit is on but please stick to the evidence and not emotion.

            While I'm at it masks are pretty useless, especially the cloth ones most people wear. It's especially dumb for people who have no symptoms. The chance of spreading a respiratory virus if you have no symptoms is almost 0.

            And yes I'm a doctor. And all modesty aside, an extremely well trained one. I know my immunology and virology as well as anyone.

            I'm sure many of you will jump at your keyboard to respond to this based on your comments on this thread. Keep it civil.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Panscan View Post
              I think that's a bit hyperbolic. that sounds like a terrible incident but I don't think a commonly generalizable one. we don't have armed vigilantes doing whatever they want and defying the restrictions across the country. I do think people were pretty dumb about it and I don't understand how it is so difficult to understand how the mask needs to cover both your nose and mouth and needs to stay there (or how this was so hard for people to maintain).

              In the vast majority of situations like that, the police would be called, they would respond and tell the person they need to follow the restrictions and everyone would move on with their lives. Person can be charged with associated crimes that were committed. I really don't think there is a significant crowd of anti-vaxers saying "let me into applebees or I will shoot you."
              we absolutely have a country full of people defying restrictions at the local, state, and business level.

              every time in 2020 you walked into a store that required masks and saw an unmasked person you saw it.

              and i think there is very little evidence that these folks would have done anything other than what they pleased.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tangler View Post
                Yeah, i know, I agree, we are not in a great spot.

                Moron with gun? Manager should let the guy in, be nice, set him at a table, then call 911 and have the turd arrested.

                That is awful.
                what law would he be breaking in TX for example?

                people are absolutely allowed to berate business staff while openly displaying firearms.

                you think the police would have arrested him for not wearing a mask? has that ever happened?

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                • Originally posted by MPMD View Post

                  what law would he be breaking in TX for example?

                  people are absolutely allowed to berate business staff while openly displaying firearms.

                  you think the police would have arrested him for not wearing a mask? has that ever happened?
                  If you ask them to leave and they don't leave then they are trespassing. An employee should ask the person to leave and then call the police. You don't have to get into a confrontation. Somebody never watched Live PD when it was on...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ohehlo View Post
                    Haven't read the whole thread so not sure if everyone feels the opposite as me.

                    If you are vaccinated why do you care if anyone else is? Anyone who wants the vaccine can get it.

                    Children are not at risk from covid. The flu is much more dangerous to them.

                    I would rather expose my children to covid than any of the covid vaccines.

                    My flame suit is on but please stick to the evidence and not emotion.

                    While I'm at it masks are pretty useless, especially the cloth ones most people wear. It's especially dumb for people who have no symptoms. The chance of spreading a respiratory virus if you have no symptoms is almost 0.

                    And yes I'm a doctor. And all modesty aside, an extremely well trained one. I know my immunology and virology as well as anyone.

                    I'm sure many of you will jump at your keyboard to respond to this based on your comments on this thread. Keep it civil.
                    While vaccines have been proven to be highly effective, they are not 100% and not everyone has a functional immune system. Hence, I care about potential exposure to this pathogen and would prefer others to be vaccinated to reduce the spread. Additionally, continued infections and spread increase the risk for more variants and current vaccines may offer less protection from new variants.

                    I agree we should stay civil and stick to evidence. There is data (PNAS) that asymptomatic spread of covid (JAMA) occurs. CDC provides a reasonably summary of evidence we have for cloth masks. If you have evidence that asymptomatic spread risk is almost 0 or that masks are ineffective please provide reference.

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                    • Originally posted by CordMcNally View Post

                      If you ask them to leave and they don't leave then they are trespassing. An employee should ask the person to leave and then call the police. You don't have to get into a confrontation. Somebody never watched Live PD when it was on...
                      Exactly. I would not confront some armed jerk, rather, wait for police, then ask him nicely to leave after police arrive. He is a jerk. No one arguing that point. He has a gun and he is acting threatening. Enough.

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                      • Originally posted by Gamma Knives View Post

                        While vaccines have been proven to be highly effective, they are not 100% and not everyone has a functional immune system. Hence, I care about potential exposure to this pathogen and would prefer others to be vaccinated to reduce the spread. Additionally, continued infections and spread increase the risk for more variants and current vaccines may offer less protection from new variants.

                        I agree we should stay civil and stick to evidence. There is data (PNAS) that asymptomatic spread of covid (JAMA) occurs. CDC provides a reasonably summary of evidence we have for cloth masks. If you have evidence that asymptomatic spread risk is almost 0 or that masks are ineffective please provide reference.
                        Exactly. My 81 year old mother-in-law with CA would really appreciate if people would get vaccinated to protect her and people like her. She has been vaccinated but her immune system is not great and chemo, CA, and age put her at great risk. Vaccine is safe, effective and helpful. Not going to force people, but strongly encourage them. The vaccines are a wonderful thing but they work best if almost everyone gets them.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gamma Knives View Post

                          While vaccines have been proven to be highly effective, they are not 100% and not everyone has a functional immune system. Hence, I care about potential exposure to this pathogen and would prefer others to be vaccinated to reduce the spread. Additionally, continued infections and spread increase the risk for more variants and current vaccines may offer less protection from new variants.

                          I agree we should stay civil and stick to evidence. There is data (PNAS) that asymptomatic spread of covid (JAMA) occurs. CDC provides a reasonably summary of evidence we have for cloth masks. If you have evidence that asymptomatic spread risk is almost 0 or that masks are ineffective please provide reference.
                          Asymptomatic spread is very rare.
                          There is no evidence that the vaccine provides better immunity than natural immunity from exposure. Why should everyone be vaccinated if they have already had it and have antibodies?

                          Nothing is 100%, but fretting over what other people do or don't do to protect you is a waste. Protect yourself and family as far as you feel is reasonable and leave everyone else alone.

                          We've never needed a vaccine for something like this before... This isn't polio or smallpox, this is a cold virus.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ohehlo View Post
                            It's especially dumb for people who have no symptoms. The chance of spreading a respiratory virus if you have no symptoms is almost 0.

                            And yes I'm a doctor. And all modesty aside, an extremely well trained one.

                            Keep it civil.
                            Asymptomatic spread is real and happens all the time. Please reread the journals on this. It's quite well documented.

                            Time over again multiple family members infected by some asymptomatic family member resulting in multigenerational spread. Even now. Just had a case this week with a patient and family members.

                            Our hospital did routine weekly swabs and daily symptom checkers. Throughout pandemic it was 1% positive spread that spiked to just shy of 5% of asymptomatic swabs in end Dec before vaccines. Once vaccines came and got to high numbers, the positive rate dropped to 0.05% health systemwide and exclusively in unvaccinated employees.


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                            • Originally posted by ohehlo View Post

                              Asymptomatic spread is very rare.
                              There is no evidence that the vaccine provides better immunity than natural immunity from exposure. Why should everyone be vaccinated if they have already had it and have antibodies?

                              Nothing is 100%, but fretting over what other people do or don't do to protect you is a waste. Protect yourself and family as far as you feel is reasonable and leave everyone else alone.

                              We've never needed a vaccine for something like this before... This isn't polio or smallpox, this is a cold virus.
                              You still haven't provided a single reference to back up your claim of asymptomatic spread being almost 0 / rare. You asked for evidence and not emotion but fail to provide evidence.

                              The question of vaccination after recovery is certainly less clear but not everyone has been infected. There are still many new infections (hospitalization rates in US are overwhelmingly non-vaccinated people); clearly the virus is still an issue. This is a "cold virus" that has killed millions of people around the world in the last ~18 months.

                              Again provide evidence for your claims.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ohehlo View Post
                                Haven't read the whole thread so not sure if everyone feels the opposite as me.

                                If you are vaccinated why do you care if anyone else is? Anyone who wants the vaccine can get it.

                                Children are not at risk from covid. The flu is much more dangerous to them.

                                I would rather expose my children to covid than any of the covid vaccines.

                                My flame suit is on but please stick to the evidence and not emotion.

                                While I'm at it masks are pretty useless, especially the cloth ones most people wear. It's especially dumb for people who have no symptoms. The chance of spreading a respiratory virus if you have no symptoms is almost 0.

                                And yes I'm a doctor. And all modesty aside, an extremely well trained one. I know my immunology and virology as well as anyone.

                                I'm sure many of you will jump at your keyboard to respond to this based on your comments on this thread. Keep it civil.
                                Because I’m tired of cleaning up after the self-inflicted wounds of the unvaccinated.

                                The hospital covid admissions are currently > 95% unvaccinated.

                                We don’t need masks if everyone was vaccinated. Masks are a poor substitute unless you want to gown and wear N95.

                                if you want to open up a hospital staffed and paid for by the unvaccinated knock yourself out.

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