Val Jones article on Kevinmd.com

[Miss Bonnie MD]

This link: http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2017/05/physicians-not-complain-school-debt.html

Short story- she says that basically, every MD should be able to pay off their loans within 2 years.

The article has generated lots of comments (some on kevinmd, some on facebook). She called them whiners on her twitter on may 10:

"Another comment stream full of MDs crying poor. Tone deaf or do you agree?"

I am def in the camp of pay off loans sooner rather than later, but to state that all MDs should be able to pay off loans within 2 years is ludicrous.

[Zaphod]

Miss Bonnie MD wrote:

This link: http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2017/05/physicians-not-complain-school-debt.html

Short story- she says that basically, every MD should be able to pay off their loans within 2 years.

The article has generated lots of comments (some on kevinmd, some on facebook). She called them whiners on her twitter on may 10:

“Another comment stream full of MDs crying poor. Tone deaf or do you agree?”

I am def in the camp of pay off loans sooner rather than later, but to state that all MDs should be able to pay off loans within 2 years is ludicrous.

Click to expand...

Ludicrous. Impossible. Obviously the important factors are your pay and how much loans you have. There are lots of scenarios in the matrix where that simply wont work.

Some of her other tweets are just as unbearable, and either shes totally egotistical and also an unbearable person irl, or just as I suspect good at getting people to engage by leaving click/angry bait stuff. It sadly works. People have a hard time with level headed stuff, just gets no play.

I do agree doctors should be very careful where and to who theyre whining too, it does sound terrible if people have no context and they certainly dont. So dont do it, only whine to your peers.

[q-school]

2 years!  maybe it's time for her to stop writing.  she's always had some off the wall opinions.

maybe trolling for attention?

[DMFA]

Copy/pasted from a Facebook group I posted this in:

Meh. If you're taking appropriate mitigating factors of interest accrual during training and refinance to the lowest possible rate, like a 5-year variable which was 2.11% with SoFi earlier this year (slightly higher now since the LIBOR increases), the amount lost to finance charges are really not so bad.

But I don't have that extent of restraint to live off ramen in 700 sqft. Sure, if you can engage in ascetic-style self-denial, you can knock out the loans quickly. However, that doesn't mean that people who don't are wasteful, ungrateful, stupid, etc. Honestly I think five years is a more reasonable target.

If you can refinance a loan below 3% then it's not harming much, though obv it should still be paid asap since there's no mitigating factors to student debt for high-income people (tax deduction for interest phases out for p much all attendings). Yeah, I'm not thrilled about debt, either, and sure, I could pay it quicker...but at 3% my extra money is mathematically better off invested.

Let's assume MFJ, non-working spouse, two kids. 200k, minus 18k for 401(k), std deduction of $12,600, and $16,200 exemption is $154,200 taxable, so $30,000 in income tax (barely in 28% bracket). Payroll taxes on the $200k are about $7,900 SS and $2,900 for MCR, so another $10,800. So even accounting for maxing 401(k) elective deferral, that's about $141,200 after tax and 401(k). We'll use 60k annual expenses since that's a good number, so $81k per year. We'll assume $200,000 of debt appropriately refinanced to a 5-year term, and we'll use the higher fixed interest rate for ease of calculation (though variable would be a better idea for short term and aggressive payments), so =-pmt(3.375%/12,60,200000) is $3,627.15, or $43,500 a year...$37,500 left for the year, you could still do two IRAs and have $2,200/month to spare. That's reasonable.

This guy/woman taking about blowing it away in two years doesn't have his math right if those are the figures he's using. Now, if here's earning 600k on a 150k debt, well...lucky him.

[Zaphod]

DMFA wrote:

Copy/pasted from a Facebook group I posted this in:

Meh. If you’re taking appropriate mitigating factors of interest accrual during training and refinance to the lowest possible rate, like a 5-year variable which was 2.11% with SoFi earlier this year (slightly higher now since the LIBOR increases), the amount lost to finance charges are really not so bad.

But I don’t have that extent of restraint to live off ramen in 700 sqft. Sure, if you can engage in ascetic-style self-denial, you can knock out the loans quickly. However, that doesn’t mean that people who don’t are wasteful, ungrateful, stupid, etc. Honestly I think five years is a more reasonable target.

If you can refinance a loan below 3% then it’s not harming much, though obv it should still be paid asap since there’s no mitigating factors to student debt for high-income people (tax deduction for interest phases out for p much all attendings). Yeah, I’m not thrilled about debt, either, and sure, I could pay it quicker…but at 3% my extra money is mathematically better off invested.

Let’s assume MFJ, non-working spouse, two kids. 200k, minus 18k for 401(k), std deduction of $12,600, and $16,200 exemption is $154,200 taxable, so $30,000 in income tax (barely in 28% bracket). Payroll taxes on the $200k are about $7,900 SS and $2,900 for MCR, so another $10,800. So even accounting for maxing 401(k) elective deferral, that’s about $141,200 after tax and 401(k). We’ll use 60k annual expenses since that’s a good number, so $81k per year. We’ll assume $200,000 of debt appropriately refinanced to a 5-year term, and we’ll use the higher fixed interest rate for ease of calculation (though variable would be a better idea for short term and aggressive payments), so =-pmt(3.375%/12,60,200000) is $3,627.15, or $43,500 a year…$37,500 left for the year, you could still do two IRAs and have $2,200/month to spare. That’s reasonable.

This guy/woman taking about blowing it away in two years doesn’t have his math right if those are the figures he’s using. Now, if here’s earning 600k on a 150k debt, well…lucky him.

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What if you were stupid and took no mitigating interest accrual steps AND had a 7 year training program that paid terribly (40-54)? Gets harder.

Now I wished I knew the things I didnt know then, but I didnt, and often worked 100+ hours (avg 80/wk over a month ofc) and studied/rode my bike the rest.

[DMFA]

Yeah, and Val Jones takes even less into account things like time-value of compounding gains over simple amortizing low rate interest. On math alone, should I put $150k/yr to eliminate a debt in the low 2s (5-yr variable) or low 3s (10-yr variable) as opposed to invest it for three decades of compounding gains?

First, there's an issue anytime anyone uses "all" or "every" in any argument, so it's just about off the rails before it begins. Second, it's a mathematically ridiculous argument. Numbers don't lie. If you're making the income of a primary care doc and have the full debt from undergrad and med school, you literally cannot make those numbers work in two years even if you did (and do) everything right.

I guess a problem is that if reader base of KevinMD reflects most of its content, they're whiners to begin with. I guess let's throw the compulsory "omg nurses too" comment in there as well. The only decent stuff I've read on that site (that I remember) is by WCI and PoF. Maybe I'm just a hater, but I can't stand that site.

[PhysicianOnFIRE]

Threw me for a loop there. I've got a guest post from a different Valerie Jones, MD coming on Thursday. My Val Jones seems more reasonable.

[ENT Doc]

I had the unfortunate experience of reading that article and a few others to see what this website was all about.  I don't think I'll be revisiting it any time soon.  Saw one that said it was "shaming" to say that a patient was non-compliant.  Please.

[Zaphod]

DMFA wrote:

Yeah, and Val Jones takes even less into account things like time-value of compounding gains over simple amortizing low rate interest. On math alone, should I put $150k/yr to eliminate a debt in the low 2s (5-yr variable) or low 3s (10-yr variable) as opposed to invest it for three decades of compounding gains?

First, there’s an issue anytime anyone uses “all” or “every” in any argument, so it’s just about off the rails before it begins. Second, it’s a mathematically ridiculous argument. Numbers don’t lie. If you’re making the income of a primary care doc and have the full debt from undergrad and med school, you literally cannot make those numbers work in two years even if you did (and do) everything right.

I guess a problem is that if reader base of KevinMD reflects most of its content, they’re whiners to begin with. I guess let’s throw the compulsory “omg nurses too” comment in there as well. The only decent stuff I’ve read on that site (that I remember) is by WCI and PoF. Maybe I’m just a hater, but I can’t stand that site.

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I saw the whiners part in the OP post and was like, what?! Then I clicked the link and it took finishing the comment stream before there was a reasonable retort and not serious whining.

I am also a hater, the site and the usual articles (not wci/pof) and the comments. Oh well.

[EJ at Dads Dollars and Debts]

Yikes! I have 2 posts being featured there in the next few weeks/months...hope it ranks with WCI and PoF as opposed to the "whinners"! More like "winners".

 

I agree with your points above. While it is nice to pay off debt quick, most of us come out of training a little hungry to loosen the purse strings. It delays debt pay off, but as long as you understand the trade offs then who cares.

[MrsIMDoc]

I think what is frustrating and tone deaf is there are some assumptions she is making that are not true.

Assumptions:

1) Salary of $200,000. I make this salary as primary care in a rural area but many do not.

2) Debt of $200,000.  The reason people are upset about student loan debt is because student loan debt is now becoming more like $300K to $400K.  Again, I actually fit her scenario with a starting debt of $200K but I know that newer graduates have much more debt.

3) The assumption that physicians have the same childcare needs as an average worker.  Many physicians simply cannot use daycare because of the length of their day and the fact that they do not do shift work.  This means many have a nanny, or a nanny for part of the day combined with daycare.   Furthermore, many physicians are not able to call in sick without a significant financial penalty, making a nanny required. Many physicians are paying $30-50K in childcare alone.

Another complexity I have not seen discussed on WCI is that many of the great paying rural jobs are in childcare deserts. https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/early-childhood/reports/2016/10/27/225703/child-care-deserts/.  I live in a rural area so that I can have the higher paying physician job (Yeah I know $200K is not alot but it is for my specialty) and we are in a childcare desert.

The concept to "live like a resident" often means to not have children in my book.  My husband and I have no family support and we would absolutely not be able to afford to have a child in residency. This is why many physicians delay having children until they are attendings and can afford them.

The above are just some of the reasons why her article is frustrating for the physicians that are not living lavishly yet still feel the burden of student loan debt.

 

 

 

[WallStreetPhysician]

Miss Bonnie MD wrote:

This link: http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2017/05/physicians-not-complain-school-debt.html

Short story- she says that basically, every MD should be able to pay off their loans within 2 years.

The article has generated lots of comments (some on kevinmd, some on facebook). She called them whiners on her twitter on may 10:

“Another comment stream full of MDs crying poor. Tone deaf or do you agree?”

I am def in the camp of pay off loans sooner rather than later, but to state that all MDs should be able to pay off loans within 2 years is ludicrous.

Click to expand...

This is just a more extreme / inflammatory way of WCI saying to "live like a resident" or how I've written to do a "financial fellowship." If you're a primary care physician and all your internal medicine co-residents are doing fellowship, why can't you live like a resident/fellow just like them for 3 years and pay off your student loans?

-WSP