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  • #76
    Originally posted by fatlittlepig View Post
    OK, I’ve obviously have been proven incorrect- no gratitude is indicated as your success is deserved, through your hard work, superior academic achievement, grit and fortitude. It was preposterous to compare your journey to those who have traveled a more winding road and have hit some of life’s potholes. Okay we can go back to discussing our high salaries, and griping about our high taxes.
    Your point isn't missed though, there's a lot of tragedy in the world unfortunately. I think some of these situations in the medical school world could be improved by making the schools have more skin in the game and not profiting off stringing students along. Pretty much how all these new DO schools and Caribbean schools make money. Very predatory. Would definitely like to see some more pressure on these entities from the overseeing bodies.
    Last edited by Panscan; 02-25-2021, 05:56 AM.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Panscan View Post
      .
      overall I think candidates in general are way neurotic about differences between places as well as their relative importance in the grand scheme.
      All programs teach and train in the chosen specialty. The requirements are geared towards a competent physician that passes the boards.

      There is a significant difference however.
      Tilt is “blue collar” vs “research/academic”.
      The PD and attendings fill that time and demands differently. Those skills are important in what career paths will be available post residency.
      The type of program is probably more important than “Ivory” vs “Bumble U”. Both will get you trained in your specialty to pass the boards.
      Fit is the word I have heard. “Blue collar” has advantages although it seems to have negative connotations in the ratings.

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      • #78
        It is not uncommon for FM residencies to be mostly or entirely filled with FMGs. I remember being warned to look out for that when I was doing my searches.

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        • #79
          My take away from all this

          1. This was a poorly written article with a lot of agenda - it started with a picture of AA and using words like descendants of sharecroppers and first person to ever go to college when the reality is that very few AA go to these carribean schools.

          2. These schools were never prominent when I did my residency in an inner city hospital in NYC where there was not a single US medical graduate. Not one, out of 60 IM residents. They had their pick of Ivory tower schools or safe suburbs, so why risk getting shot or mugged in the Bronx. It was all FMG, with a couple of US citizens who went abroad for medical training in the mix. They were called fifth pathway grads. They probably could not get in the safe residencies.

          3. As the visas for FMG's became more restricted in the late 90' and again after 2005, they could not be bought in fill the slots in the undesirable residencies. The DO floodgates had not opened yet. So the option was these US grads doing med school abroad. Started in the Caribbean but later spread to even Poland, proudly announcing European education. These were geared mainly towards Asians since those parents still had the doctor son/daughter mentality and had the money to send their kid abroad to these schools. At one point every 2nd ad in the Dish Indian TV stations in US was for these med schools.

          4. Initially the students were not bad in their requirements / qualifications. They had slightly lower GPA or MCAT scores and many might not have qualified for US schools. But a not insignificant number would have but for the fact that US schools started to go big into diversity and limit the number of Asians and enroll more of other preferred groups. There was also an undercurrent of racism in certain parts of the country though these kids were born here and spoke like a native but had "funny sounding" names. The Asians were understandably frustrated at being left out in spite of higher grades and qualifications compared to some groups who were taken in and decided to find and use the loophole of the carribean schools. The schools also exploited their intense craving to become a doctor.

          5. Things went well for some time. I know many students from these schools and some who have rotated in my office / shadowed me. They were no worse that US grads who are here at the local hospital and some were even quite bright and scored well in USMLE exams. But with the increase in state DO schools, for profit DO schools and even US MD schools but with stagnant residency slots, there had to some limits placed and cuts made. These Caribbean schools were easy targets since the education was spotty and some were good and some were bad and it was easy to lump everyone as bad. The students and their parents still thought things were OK and their kid will get into residency but by the time the message entered their heads it was too late.

          7. A few lucky Caribbean grads did a year of medical related jobs and research and managed to get into obscure residencies in nowhere land in PA, North Dakota and the like. But all they needed was a foot in the door. Everyone who got in managed to pass their boards and are happily employed or doing fellowships. One has even become the chief of his PP group within 6 years. But the ones within the past 4-5 years are having a tough time. Especially if they were not bright enough to start with or did not work hard. It is tough but they took their chances and rolled the dice and it did not end well.

          There is no political message in this post. It is the way I have seen it unfold over the years.
          Last edited by Kamban; 02-25-2021, 08:35 AM.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Panscan View Post

            Your point isn't missed though, there's a lot of tragedy in the world unfortunately. I think some of these situations in the medical school world could be improved by making the schools have more skin in the game and not profiting off stringing students along. Pretty much how all these new DO schools and Caribbean schools make money. Very predatory. Would definitely like to see some more pressure on these entities from the overseeing bodies.
            I never said it was a tragedy, going to an offshore school is a gamble- I think it's a reasonable gamble if you are motivated and intense. that being said, it's pretty telling that everyone here is fixated on the FMG, Caribbean aspect, and can't just state yes I am grateful for my station and situation in life. I know I am.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by fatlittlepig View Post

              I never said it was a tragedy, going to an offshore school is a gamble- I think it's a reasonable gamble if you are motivated and intense. that being said, it's pretty telling that everyone here is fixated on the FMG, Caribbean aspect, and can't just state yes I am grateful for my station and situation in life. I know I am.
              I am happy that I am a physician. I have worked hard in the past and it has improved my net worth. But I have also seen people work hard and not get much out of it. And there are people who have worked hard for only a short time but have made billions. Life is not fair across many sections of society. Be happy with what you have.

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              • #82
                OP, perhaps it's the title of the thread and the article coupled together that lead to a discussion that was not your intent.

                I would say most of the folk in the forum tend to run fiscally conservative and in for long haul disciplined work, which ultimate success does not happen by luck in most cases.

                As most people should admit, there is a fair amount of luck of the draw for equally qualified folk for a competitive position or slot. It does rub the wrong way when it's presented as a you're a widget, dime-a-dozen. fungible. Get back to work. and makes a poor work environment and rarely gets morale or productivity improved.


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                • #83
                  Originally posted by fatlittlepig View Post
                  OK, I’ve obviously have been proven incorrect- no gratitude is indicated as your success is deserved, through your hard work, superior academic achievement, grit and fortitude. It was preposterous to compare your journey to those who have traveled a more winding road and have hit some of life’s potholes. Okay we can go back to discussing our high salaries, and griping about our high taxes.
                  I would love to go back to discussing the obscene confiscatory taxes I pay but then PEDs would delete my thread again.....

                  Look, fat-little-pig, I feel bad for the people in the article and I'm thankful for where I am in life, but I disagree somewhat with the premise of your post. You say "U R lucky, be grateful". How much of where I am is due to luck? Certainly I didn't get to choose my good parents and upbringing situation, but I certainly did make a heck of a lot of good, hard decisions that put me in a position to succeed in life that was far from "luck". There are millions of people who have enjoyed a similar parentage and upbringing as me who have subsequently made poor decisions in life which resulted in utter failure.

                  The people in the article you reference made some pretty bad decisions. Its sad, but its self inflicted. How much different would it be for me to post an article from the NYT's bemoaning the fate of the poor investors who lost all their money and homes due to gambling on a "sure" thing by putting all their money in Lehman brothers and Chrysler Motors? Those of us on this website would say, that's really sad but they made some very poor choices. They played a high risk game and lost. My situation isn't "luck" by comparison, its wise planning and investing.

                  The article you used for your point was poorly written and biased with an obvious agenda. The responses you received were not due to the forum having no sympathy or gratefulness.

                  Last edited by K82; 02-25-2021, 12:52 PM.

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                  • #84
                    Although it’s “only” been 15 years since I went to medical school, it just sounds like a different world now. Tuition at my in state school has tripled - to the cost of the most expensive of the eight or so institutions to which I applied at the time. I had the option to take subsidized loans and graduated debt free. There was much less competition for residency spots and I got in to a good program despite being IMO a very marginal medical student. How often did graduates of US medical schools go unmatched in the 1980s and 1990s? My guess is close to never.

                    If I were competing with more medical students with average MCAT scores 4 points higher and taking on a six figure debt, and going into a worse professional climate, I hope I could have been talked into a different path. However, at the time, I was just a mindless lemming with tunnel vision, so I feel fortunate that I wasn’t trained in the current state of medical education.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by K82 View Post

                      I would love to go back to discussing the obscene confiscatory taxes I pay but then PEDs would delete my thread again.....

                      Look, fat-little-pig, I feel bad for the people in the article and I'm thankful for where I am in life, but I disagree somewhat with the premise of your post. You say "U R lucky, be grateful". How much of where I am is due to luck? Certainly I didn't get to choose my good parents and upbringing situation, but I certainly did make a heck of a lot of good, hard decisions that put me in a position to succeed in life that was far from "luck". There are millions of people who have enjoyed a similar parentage and upbringing as me who have subsequently made poor decisions in life which resulted in utter failure.

                      The people in the article you reference made some pretty bad decisions. Its sad, but its self inflicted. How much different would it be for me to post an article from the NYT's bemoaning the fate of the poor investors who lost all their money and homes due to gambling on a "sure" thing by putting all their money in Lehman brothers and Chrysler Motors? Those of us on this website would say, that's really sad but they made some very poor choices. They played a high risk game and lost. My situation isn't "luck" by comparison, its wise planning and investing.

                      The article you used for your point was poorly written and biased with an obvious agenda. The responses you received were not due to the forum having no sympathy or gratefulness.

                      Chance favors the prepared mind.” This statement, made by Louis Pasteur,
                      For better or worse, your post illustrates the attitude (I would label it an entitled attitude) that I see in many physicians. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being proud in what we have achieved, through delayed gratification, hard work, and dedication to academic excellence. However when pride morphs into I deserve this or that, I did this or that, I worked hard and others didn't blah blah- and to say others who have made different choices are utter failures- that is tone deaf and doesn't recognize the arbitrary intricacies of how life works. Luck may not have explained your success as a physician, but U R lucky and you should be grateful for what you have.

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                      • #86
                        I'm grateful to my parents and this country for the opportunities I have had. This article is more about weak medical school candidates who are preyed upon by scammy for profit overseas medical schools, who are then poorly prepared for residency, and who then - lo and behold - can't match into residency programs. There isn't an obvious connection between the two.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by fatlittlepig View Post

                          For better or worse, your post illustrates the attitude (I would label it an entitled attitude) that I see in many physicians. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being proud in what we have achieved, through delayed gratification, hard work, and dedication to academic excellence. However when pride morphs into I deserve this or that, I did this or that, I worked hard and others didn't blah blah- and to say others who have made different choices are utter failures- that is tone deaf and doesn't recognize the arbitrary intricacies of how life works. Luck may not have explained your success as a physician, but U R lucky and you should be grateful for what you have.
                          An "entitled attitude" means someone who feels they deserve something they didn't earn. I don't feel that way at all. I'm not entitled to being a physician, I earned it through years of hard work. Do I "deserve" it? That's more of a spiritual/philosophical question. I don't have an answer for that. Life certainly does have a lot of intricacies, some of which we can influence and some we can't. On some level I am lucky and I am very grateful. I feel more sorry for the 33 y/o girl I diagnosed with breast cancer yesterday who had no fault in the situation than I do for those who make poor decisions and then seem to feel entitled for others to make up for it.

                          Also, you misquoted me. I didn't say that others who made different choices from me are utter failures. My point was that there are millions of others in this country who have had similar opportunities to me and have made poor choices some of which has resulted in them being utter failures. Genetics and upbringing aren't all the ingredients needed for success.

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                          • #88
                            Super timely article

                            https://finance.yahoo.com/news/medic...151422886.html

                            wonder if we will hear more stories of discharged loan debt from students unable to secure residencies. This guy graduated in 2010 from a PR school and since then has been living in his parents’ kitchen, working as a parking attendant and a dishwasher.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Lithium View Post
                              Super timely article

                              https://finance.yahoo.com/news/medic...151422886.html

                              wonder if we will hear more stories of discharged loan debt from students unable to secure residencies. This guy graduated in 2010 from a PR school and since then has been living in his parents’ kitchen, working as a parking attendant and a dishwasher.
                              Good for him, but it seems like a one-off.

                              I still find it incredible that someone can start any business, buy (or lease) a lambo, spend 20k on credit cards for hedonist pursuits, then can declare bankruptcy and get all these debts erased.

                              But if someone borrows money for higher education, sorry, you're straight out of luck. That debt will haunt you until you die. The vast majority of these are not discharged in court.

                              Priorities seem misaligned, to say the least.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by xraygoggles View Post

                                Good for him, but it seems like a one-off.

                                I still find it incredible that someone can start any business, buy (or lease) a lambo, spend 20k on credit cards for hedonist pursuits, then can declare bankruptcy and get all these debts erased.

                                But if someone borrows money for higher education, sorry, you're straight out of luck. That debt will haunt you until you die. The vast majority of these are not discharged in court.

                                Priorities seem misaligned, to say the least.
                                Other then the CC the rest of those debts are backed by the asset. They take back your business, house, car etc. CC debt it not backed but you would need to build up your credit and it would be a challenge to get it high enough if you have a sketchy financial background.

                                Student loans are a whole different beast. They cannot repo your brain. If bankruptcy was a viable path it would be abused very quickly.

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