U R lucky, Be grateful

[K82]

Here's a quote from the article as to why students go to the Caribbean for med school:

"Students graduating from American colleges choose to go to medical school abroad for many reasons. Some have test-taking anxiety and prefer to apply to schools that don’t rely on MCAT scores for admission; others are attracted by the warmth and adventure promised by schools based in the Caribbean, which tend to have acceptance rates that are 10 times as high as those of American schools."

It seems to leave out the only reason....they are unable to get into a medical school in the U.S.

[fatlittlepig]

Here's a quote from the article as to why students go to the Caribbean for med school:

"Students graduating from American colleges choose to go to medical school abroad for many reasons. Some have test-taking anxiety and prefer to apply to schools that don’t rely on MCAT scores for admission; others are attracted by the warmth and adventure promised by schools based in the Caribbean, which tend to have acceptance rates that are 10 times as high as those of American schools."

It seems to leave out the only reason....they are unable to get into a medical school in the U.S.

Um doesn’t the paragraph you quote say exactly the same thing as what you’re purporting it doesn’t say. Anyways I suspect the Venn diagram of good physicians has much overlap between FMGs, allopathic students and osteopathic students. At least that’s been my observation. Anyways the point of the post was the next time you feel sorry for yourself think there is someone who would happily trade places with you.

[G]

I feel this same way about all the incidental bs we follow up for a million years. Person has had stable 3 mm nodules for 10 years but let’s do another one “ just to check.” Let’s not. Then maybe when they actually have something they need to follow up they will show up for their appointment.

Agreed. But again, you are using logic. For the [insured] patient, the test is "free." For the risk averse doc, there is limited downside to ordering the 10th scan. Until there is a) skin in the game for the patients and b) liability protection for EBM, it ain't gonna change.

I actually quote the Fleischner criteria in my note and discuss with the patient, but ALWAYS punt it back to the PCP. If there is a 12-step program for that, I guess I'd sign up...but on the other hand we get a "Greetings" letter from a plaintiff's attorney about every 5 years regarding incidental findings.

[K82]

Um doesn’t the paragraph you quote say exactly the same thing as what you’re purporting it doesn’t say. Anyways I suspect the Venn diagram of good physicians has much overlap between FMGs, allopathic students and osteopathic students. At least that’s been my observation. Anyways the point of the post was the next time you feel sorry for yourself think there is someone who would happily trade places with you.

No, it doesn't state that. It even suggests that maybe they wanted to go to a Caribbean medical school because of the nice weather. Seriously? Do you know of any FMG who is a US college graduate who had the opportunity to attend a US med school but who chose to go a Caribbean one? I don't. My comment is not to suggest that there are no good FMGs out there, I agree that there is overlap and the methods of selecting students can certainly be debated for its efficacy, but to suggest that the students attending US med schools and Caribbean med schools are all the same, its just that those down south liked the weather better is ridiculous.

The point I'm making is that the author is clearly biased and pushing an agenda which is evident by the misleading way she wrote it.

[fatlittlepig]

You're stating the obvious: no one chooses a caribbean MS over a US school. The author states that the test score requirements are less stringent and the acceptance rates are 10x higher.

"Students graduating from American colleges choose to go to medical school abroad for many reasons. Some have test-taking anxiety and prefer to apply to schools that don’t rely on MCAT scores for admission; others are attracted by the warmth and adventure promised by schools based in the Caribbean, which tend to have acceptance rates that are 10 times as high as those of American schools."

[G]

You're stating the obvious: no one chooses a caribbean MS over a US school. The author states that the test score requirements are less stringent and the acceptance rates are 10x higher.

"Students graduating from American colleges choose to go to medical school abroad for many reasons. Some have test-taking anxiety and prefer to apply to schools that don’t rely on MCAT scores for admission; others are attracted by the warmth and adventure promised by schools based in the Caribbean, which tend to have acceptance rates that are 10 times as high as those of American schools."

Uhh...

[Panscan]

I know when I'm putting hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line for my future hopeful job, the most important things to me are weather and adventure.

[K82]

You're stating the obvious: no one chooses a caribbean MS over a US school. The author states that the test score requirements are less stringent and the acceptance rates are 10x higher.

"Students graduating from American colleges choose to go to medical school abroad for many reasons. Some have test-taking anxiety and prefer to apply to schools that don’t rely on MCAT scores for admission; others are attracted by the warmth and adventure promised by schools based in the Caribbean, which tend to have acceptance rates that are 10 times as high as those of American schools."

That is exactly my point. No one chooses a Caribbean medical school over a US one, and yet, the author suggests they do....for the weather!

And....."test taking anxiety"?! Does she mean, unable to score competitively on standardized exams? Why do you suspect that the whole article fails to correctly identify the real issues here? An agenda maybe?

Again, I'm not suggesting that there are no good FMGs, I just have an issue with the way the article was written.

[Marko-ER]

To anyone else reading this outside the narrow group that is typically here at WCI forums, it's not that the folks here do not feel bad for those who have repeatedly failed to match, or left residency for one reason or another and now are without a medical license and saddled with 100s of thousands of $ of student loan debt. We all feel the system is less than ideal, and there needs to be a method to cut people off earlier in the process. More accountability, probably at the medical school administration and to a lesser extent at the residency program levels. But remember people here are typically already established in their medical careers and come to it with a corresponding perspective. Plus there is a healthy libertarian streak on this board too. Just look at the initial post and the next 2 posts on page #1 (start of the thread). No likes for the OP, 10+ likes for the next 2 posts that critique NYT take on this story.

[Lordosis]

If the school cannot get you past step 1 you get your money back?

[K82]

To anyone else reading this outside the narrow group that is typically here at WCI forums, it's not that the folks here do not feel bad for those who have repeatedly failed to match, or left residency for one reason or another and now are without a medical license and saddled with 100s of thousands of $ of student loan debt. We all feel the system is less than ideal, and there needs to be a method to cut people off earlier in the process. More accountability, probably at the medical school administration and to a lesser extent at the residency program levels. But remember people here are typically already established in their medical careers and come to it with a corresponding perspective. Plus there is a healthy libertarian streak on this board too. Just look at the initial post and the next 2 posts on page #1 (start of the thread). No likes for the OP, 10+ likes for the next 2 posts that critique NYT take on this story.

I totally agree. I feel a lot of sympathy for those that have left no stone unturned in an attempt to become a doctor and have ended up with huge school debt and no good path forward. None of my comments are intended to make little of their plight. Some of them were ill informed of the risks, some knew the risks and took them. I don't know how you can fix a situation like this when you have bad actors in another country making a buck at the expense of the desperate. My posts were directed at pointing out the dis ingenuousness of the author of the article.

[Anne]

To anyone else reading this outside the narrow group that is typically here at WCI forums, it's not that the folks here do not feel bad for those who have repeatedly failed to match, or left residency for one reason or another and now are without a medical license and saddled with 100s of thousands of $ of student loan debt. We all feel the system is less than ideal, and there needs to be a method to cut people off earlier in the process. More accountability, probably at the medical school administration and to a lesser extent at the residency program levels. But remember people here are typically already established in their medical careers and come to it with a corresponding perspective. Plus there is a healthy libertarian streak on this board too. Just look at the initial post and the next 2 posts on page #1 (start of the thread). No likes for the OP, 10+ likes for the next 2 posts that critique NYT take on this story.

Agree with you, but I am quite liberal in my ideology and political leanings in general, and a NYT subscriber, and even I can tell you this is crappy journalism.

[Anne]

If the school cannot get you past step 1 you get your money back?

I know at least a couple people who realized that medicine may not be their ideal career during the first 2 years. If given such an out to get out of their outstanding debt I think they would have happily failed step 1 and gone down an alternate route. But by the time step 1 rolled around they already had too much debt to feel they could back out. They did just fine in Med school and matched just fine, but I suspect they may have taken the exit ramp of no debt in exchange for failing step 1 if it had been offered. That’s the problem with saying it’s the school’s problem. Rather, if we are going to cap residency spots we also need to cap medical school spots so there isn’t such a mismatch. If you as a medical school can’t match x students per year, you lose the accreditation for those spots, until equilibrium is reached.

[zlandar]

I am lucky and grateful to be in a career that provides me financial stability and improve the lives of others.

I also busted my butt for 20+ years to get into and do well in medical school followed by residency, fellowship, and private practice. A lot of personal sacrifices were made. I'm not sure if those people featured in the NYT are willing to make the same sacrifice.

[afan]

Unfortunately, if one had a rule that refunded money to those who cannot pass Step 1, the effect would be to raise tuition on everyone. No other place for the money to come from.

I have learned to ignore the predictions about future physician workforce needs and supply. The analyses that now say we have a looming shortage are no more than the ones claiming we had a looming glut. Some advocated REDUCING the supply of physicians. Then said we have a coming shortage. Maybe they have no idea what they are talking about and should be ignored?

Increasing the number of med school slots was a foolish response to a non-existent problem. Doing so without increasing the training slots was grossly irresponsible. But the people who increased the supply of graduates had no responsibility for the lack of training positions.

Of course people do Caribbean med school because they cannot get in to US. Even with terrible advising, anyone who makes it as far as submitting applications will know that.

There might be some jobs in health care for these people. Graduates of these schools could well be ready to learn to be mid-levels. But with US docs up in arms about licensing mid-levels to do much work traditionally reserved for docs, how would they feel about letting some people with MDs but no physician training through the door?

I was more struck by the unmatched person from Georgetown. Hardly a low rate 3rd world school. Some people get in serious trouble in med school. They manage to graduate but no program would touch them with a 10 foot pole. No solution for that except that med schools could be more proactive about flunking them out, rather than letting graduate someone who is unemployable. If it happened before 4th year, they could even save some money. Not everyone who gets in to med school belongs in the profession.

The more selective specialties are not going to look at someone who struggles to pass the USMLE. The test is far from perfect, but they want their residents to pass the boards and low USMLE scores imply higher risk.