Dr Dao and the United Airlines incident

[VagabondMD]

Kamban wrote:

ACN wrote:

I would have probably taken it at $4-500 depending on the next flight option. I took $400 for a 30 min later flight with a 45 min layover +reimbursement for the leg (thus ended up with $500 voucher) a few weeks ago. 

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In his case the next flight was the next day at 3 PM. No way was $800 worth missing a office schedule for a day.

We did not take up a $1500 x 3 for ATL – Quito flight since the next flight was 24 hours later. Who knew if it will even go on time. And we had a flight to Galapagos 12 hours after landing. Miss that and you miss a $10K vacation. So the $4500 offer was not worth it for me.

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That is a great fear of mine. The missed connection or other involuntary delay on the front end of a big vacation. Once you miss the boat (figuratively and literally), you might be out a good more than the bump premium--sometimes many, many multiples.

These vouchers are BS, too. They are at best worth 50 cents on the dollar. My guess is that a significant percentage never get used. If the gate agent was peeling off $100 bills, I doubt they would have counted beyond $500. For $800 cash there might have been a stampede off the plane.

[The White Coat Investor]

Kamban wrote:

jfoxcpacfp wrote:

he police may have won this one, 

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The police did not win this one. In fact the Chicago police disowned them and stated clearly that they should have changed their uniform to state that they were security and not police, and they did not. Should it go to trial ( unlikely) that will come out.

Yes, he lost his teeth and had injuries but should you accept meekly every time even if you are right. Should Gandhi, Rosa Parks and MLK have accepted the police orders every time because they will win. I am not stating that Dr. Dao was a civil rights leader but sometimes you have to stand up for your rights if you are doing the right thing. It was not like he was speeding and refused to take a breath analyzer test.

United or any airline will never use force again against a non unruly and non disruptive customer. The airline will have to pay appropriately rather than use force. If their profits are less and that their insensitive CEO gets less bonus or is forced to resign, so be it.

And all of this because of one person, and the availability of cell phone cameras everywhere.

Click to expand...

This is a far cry from Rosa Parks, MLK, and Gandhi. First, he was wrong. He bought a ticket and those are the terms on the ticket. We can change the law and make it so airlines can't overbook, but remember the consequence- every flight will cost you more. And it has been clearly shown that what Americans care about most when it comes to flying (aside from actually landing safely at the destination) is cost. We'll haul our own baggage, leave most of it home, and bring our own food if it lowers the cost of the airfare. So, would you be willing to fly an airline that didn't overbook if every flight cost you $50 more? You might, but most Americans would say no.

Second, this isn't a civil rights issue. Nobody is oppressing airline passengers. To even compare this incident to what was going on in the South in the 60s would probably be taken as an insult to anyone who ever had a burning cross planted on their lawn, much less had a family member lynched.

[East coast]

You are absolutely right about the real value of the vouchers United gives. As a frequent flier I have these stacked up in my back pocket - you can't even combine them. Luckily since I fly enough that doesn't end up mattering too much. I actually haven't seen anywhere distinguish definitively whether or not it was $800 in voucher or $800 cash equivalent. Oscar's statement even said that the offer was actually $1k, so confusion there as well.

[fatlittlepig]

Phantasos wrote:

Kamban wrote:

I am not stating that Dr. Dao was a civil rights leader

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A civil rights leader, nope.

An internist with a heavily restricted medical license due to his being a felony convict with a history of trafficking in opioids and writing prescriptions and checks for sex with another man, yep.

irrelevant.

You would think a professional poker player (like Dr. Dao is) would know when to hold ’em, know when to fold ’em, know when to walk away, and know when to run (apparently, he didn’t know when it was past that time).

I hate the airlines as much as anyone.  United is surely horrible; I am skeptical that any of the other airlines are any better.  My impression of Dr. Dao is that he is not someone worth defending as he appears to use his title as a physician to justify or excuse his poor behavior – which is a disservice to all who wear the white coat.

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Here's my take on what happened.

This man, due to what was alluded to above had his medical license revoked for a while (years), he was eventually able to be reinstated with practice limitations, I believe he was working (or only allowed to work) once a week, going to work therefore was quite important to him. It happened that he was scheduled to work the day after this particular incident.  He was neither "belligerent" or agitated (see the video from the passenger seated directly behind him) in fact I do not believe in the context of what happened that he acted inappropriately at all.

Place yourself in his situation, you have already boarded, and had to get to work the following day and officers board a packed plane and come to your aisle and seat and ask you to leave.

Unfortunately as I have said for many years, law enforcement/cops do not have to capacity to look at the broad picture, they are unable or unwilling to de escalate a situation. They see an obstruction and do not see  human being.

[Zaphod]

fatlittlepig wrote:

Phantasos wrote:

Kamban wrote:

I am not stating that Dr. Dao was a civil rights leader

Click to expand…

A civil rights leader, nope.

An internist with a heavily restricted medical license due to his being a felony convict with a history of trafficking in opioids and writing prescriptions and checks for sex with another man, yep.

irrelevant.

You would think a professional poker player (like Dr. Dao is) would know when to hold ’em, know when to fold ’em, know when to walk away, and know when to run (apparently, he didn’t know when it was past that time).

I hate the airlines as much as anyone.  United is surely horrible; I am skeptical that any of the other airlines are any better.  My impression of Dr. Dao is that he is not someone worth defending as he appears to use his title as a physician to justify or excuse his poor behavior – which is a disservice to all who wear the white coat.

Click to expand…

Here’s my take on what happened.

This man, due to what was alluded to above had his medical license revoked for a while (years), he was eventually able to be reinstated with practice limitations, I believe he was working (or only allowed to work) once a week, going to work therefore was quite important to him. It happened that he was scheduled to work the day after this particular incident.  He was neither “belligerent” or agitated (see the video from the passenger seated directly behind him) in fact I do not believe in the context of what happened that he acted inappropriately at all.

Place yourself in his situation, you have already boarded, and had to get to work the following day and officers board a packed plane and come to your aisle and seat and ask you to leave.

Unfortunately as I have said for many years, law enforcement/cops do not have to capacity to look at the broad picture, they are unable or unwilling to de escalate a situation. They see an obstruction and do not see  human being.

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But his behavior did not get him there, and logically would preclude such an outcome. It was a 4 hour drive. He could have rented a car. What he did was highly irrational, while explainable, it still makes little sense. Its true on the other end as well, however, to be expected. All these other things are simply excuses for the behavior, when it doesnt matter at all. It was dumb and there were zero outcomes where he was going to be on that flight, so any thoughts to the contrary are just illogical and irrational as are any behavior to that end.

Why would law enforcement care about the context, they were simply coming to remove the chosen, they dont do the choosing? Context and such things should be dealt with by the airline.

If it was really important to him, he should have jumped right off that plane and started going over contingency plans that got him to his objective in the most reasonable way possible. Instead he acted out and made a scene and nothing good happened, except he probably changed the way this is handled in the future but of course was not his intent.

[Lithium]

East coast wrote:

You are absolutely right about the real value of the vouchers United gives. As a frequent flier I have these stacked up in my back pocket – you can’t even combine them. Luckily since I fly enough that doesn’t end up mattering too much. I actually haven’t seen anywhere distinguish definitively whether or not it was $800 in voucher or $800 cash equivalent. Oscar’s statement even said that the offer was actually $1k, so confusion there as well.

Click to expand...

Don't these vouchers expire after a year anyway?  I'm assuming they aren't transferable either.  If true, Delta's move to increase offers to 10k doesn't mean a lot, since most people aren't going to want to fly that much.  Their marginal utility is pretty abysmal.

http://airlinevouchers.net/guide.php

[jsr52]

Dr. Dao also traded drugs for sex.....

 

So theres that http://nypost.com/2017/04/11/doctor-dragged-off-flight-convicted-of-trading-drugs-for-sex/

 

[fatlittlepig]

Again, irrelevant

Just as Sandra Bland's previous driving record was irrelevant to how she was treated during her traffic stop.

Just as Philando Castile previous driving record was irrelevant to how he was treated.

I do not believe he acted irrationally. I believe dragging a 69 year man, concussing him, then continuing to drag him through an airplane aisle is irrational.

[fatlittlepig]

Sure, I probably would have disembarked the plane however choosing not to, should not subject you to what happened.

Just as jaywalking and talking back to a cop should not subject you to a beat down (RE: Sacramento PD) The treatment is disproportionate and inappropriate.

[Kamban]

The White Coat Investor wrote:

He bought a ticket and those are the terms on the ticket. We can change the law and make it so airlines can’t overbook,

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The flight was not overbooked. It was just that United screwed up its crew allocation in Louisville and tried to get 4 on the same flight as Dao. They could have seated them in advance or kept aside 4 slots and not allowed 4 passengers to board. But they did not do that and asked a seated passenger to leave. Where does the rules allow a seated passenger to be thrown out. You can be bumped before boarding but not after you have boarded and seated.

United could have sent the crew by different plane, found some other crew from a different airport or cancelled the flight. But they put their own importance before Dao. Serves them right for losing this PR and monetary battle.

[Kamban]

jsr52 wrote:

Dr. Dao also traded drugs for sex…..

So theres that http://nypost.com/2017/04/11/doctor-dragged-off-flight-convicted-of-trading-drugs-for-sex/

 

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Has no relevance in regards to this particular incident. he was found guilty and paid his time.

[Kamban]

Lithium wrote:

Don’t these vouchers expire after a year anyway? I’m assuming they aren’t transferable either. If true, Delta’s move to increase offers to 10k doesn’t mean a lot, since most people aren’t going to want to fly that much. Their marginal utility is pretty abysmal.

Click to expand...

I once got $500 voucher from Delta and could never use it. All the more reason for me to refuse to give up my seat for these useless vouchers.

[Kamban]

Phantasos wrote:

You would think a professional poker player (like Dr. Dao is) would know when to hold ’em, know when to fold ’em, know when to walk away, and know when to run (apparently, he didn’t know when it was past that time).

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But then he was not named Kenny

[AR]

The White Coat Investor wrote:

Kamban wrote:

jfoxcpacfp wrote:

he police may have won this one, 

Click to expand…

The police did not win this one. In fact the Chicago police disowned them and stated clearly that they should have changed their uniform to state that they were security and not police, and they did not. Should it go to trial ( unlikely) that will come out.

Yes, he lost his teeth and had injuries but should you accept meekly every time even if you are right. Should Gandhi, Rosa Parks and MLK have accepted the police orders every time because they will win. I am not stating that Dr. Dao was a civil rights leader but sometimes you have to stand up for your rights if you are doing the right thing. It was not like he was speeding and refused to take a breath analyzer test.

United or any airline will never use force again against a non unruly and non disruptive customer. The airline will have to pay appropriately rather than use force. If their profits are less and that their insensitive CEO gets less bonus or is forced to resign, so be it.

And all of this because of one person, and the availability of cell phone cameras everywhere.

Click to expand…

This is a far cry from Rosa Parks, MLK, and Gandhi. First, he was wrong. He bought a ticket and those are the terms on the ticket. We can change the law and make it so airlines can’t overbook, but remember the consequence- every flight will cost you more. And it has been clearly shown that what Americans care about most when it comes to flying (aside from actually landing safely at the destination) is cost. We’ll haul our own baggage, leave most of it home, and bring our own food if it lowers the cost of the airfare. So, would you be willing to fly an airline that didn’t overbook if every flight cost you $50 more? You might, but most Americans would say no.

Second, this isn’t a civil rights issue. Nobody is oppressing airline passengers. To even compare this incident to what was going on in the South in the 60s would probably be taken as an insult to anyone who ever had a burning cross planted on their lawn, much less had a family member lynched.

Click to expand...

I think you may be a little misinformed.

The most important misunderstanding is that Dao was not wrong.  Those clearly were not the terms of the ticket.  Based on United's own terms, they almost certainly did not have a basis to have him get off the plane.  You can read the link below for more explanation, but the short version is that the rules for bumping someone off the flight are different before and after boarding.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/why-united-legally-wrong-deplane-134223391.html

 

 

 

[Zaphod]

AR wrote:

The White Coat Investor wrote:

Kamban wrote:

jfoxcpacfp wrote:

he police may have won this one,

Click to expand…

The police did not win this one. In fact the Chicago police disowned them and stated clearly that they should have changed their uniform to state that they were security and not police, and they did not. Should it go to trial ( unlikely) that will come out.

Yes, he lost his teeth and had injuries but should you accept meekly every time even if you are right. Should Gandhi, Rosa Parks and MLK have accepted the police orders every time because they will win. I am not stating that Dr. Dao was a civil rights leader but sometimes you have to stand up for your rights if you are doing the right thing. It was not like he was speeding and refused to take a breath analyzer test.

United or any airline will never use force again against a non unruly and non disruptive customer. The airline will have to pay appropriately rather than use force. If their profits are less and that their insensitive CEO gets less bonus or is forced to resign, so be it.

And all of this because of one person, and the availability of cell phone cameras everywhere.

Click to expand…

This is a far cry from Rosa Parks, MLK, and Gandhi. First, he was wrong. He bought a ticket and those are the terms on the ticket. We can change the law and make it so airlines can’t overbook, but remember the consequence- every flight will cost you more. And it has been clearly shown that what Americans care about most when it comes to flying (aside from actually landing safely at the destination) is cost. We’ll haul our own baggage, leave most of it home, and bring our own food if it lowers the cost of the airfare. So, would you be willing to fly an airline that didn’t overbook if every flight cost you $50 more? You might, but most Americans would say no.

Second, this isn’t a civil rights issue. Nobody is oppressing airline passengers. To even compare this incident to what was going on in the South in the 60s would probably be taken as an insult to anyone who ever had a burning cross planted on their lawn, much less had a family member lynched.

Click to expand…

I think you may be a little misinformed.

The most important misunderstanding is that Dao was not wrong.  Those clearly were not the terms of the ticket.  Based on United’s own terms, they almost certainly did not have a basis to have him get off the plane.  You can read the link below for more explanation, but the short version is that the rules for bumping someone off the flight are different before and after boarding.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/why-united-legally-wrong-deplane-134223391.html

 

 

 

Click to expand...

No. Any action interfering with the flight crew allows them to deplane you, and the contracts state including but not limited to, I think the writer failed by having an agenda in mind.

I think this incident will go a long way to change the latitude airlines have enjoyed for so long now, but as it is now, they have a lot. They do not have to write out every detail in the contract exactly and standard federal laws still apply, yahoo article notwithstanding. I hope it changes but thats the way it is today.

Reminder: I am not saying this is a fair or just policy, but it is as of now the law of the land and there are zero ambiguities about it. I hope courts find these type of policies and procedures to be unlawful.