Win negotiations

[Complete_newbie]

DMAL wrote:

I guess they were miffed that I dared to ask? I don’t know. For relative newbies like me to the game of contract negotiations, its hard to gauge the line between being too nice vs being aggressive and “asking for what we deserve” Even more confusing when your asking was based on advise from apparent expert in contract negotiations , in my case Contract Diagnostics. As I move forward with other contracts, I’m looking at this recent experience and I’ll admit struggling to figure out what the lesson is and what, if anything, should I do different in the future. You’re right though. Their response does lead me to believe I may have dodged a bullet.

Click to expand...

If you have competing offer then what I have learnt is to play hardball. They want you so go hard and see what you can get because you are happy with the alternative as well. That is the essence of "good" negotiation. Just had something like that last week for something non-medicine.

[WealthyDoc]

I agree that doctors tend to be poor negotiators.  They don't want to offend, insult, confront, or appear greedy.  The other side may take advantage of this.

Acquiring this skill, as with any skill, is best done through practice.  I have hosted negotiation workshops.  The doctors start out terrible but can improve quickly.  Check with your local business college or physician leadership programs.

Reading is a good base, but not enough.  Try asking for more - on small stuff.  Get a better hotel room, free side dish, extended warranty, etc.  Pretty soon you won't hesitate to ask for another 100K at work!

After you finish Getting to Yes, I recommend Never Split the Difference (by Chris Voss a former FBI hostage negotiator) and Start With No (by Jim Camp).  They will help you to not be a pushover or at least nudge you in the direction of capturing more value.

For my other thoughts, if interested:

http://wealthydoc.com/blog/negotiation-how-good-are-you

[Complete_newbie]

WealthyDoc wrote:

I agree that doctors tend to be poor negotiators.  They don’t want to offend, insult, confront, or appear greedy.  The other side may take advantage of this.

Acquiring this skill, as with any skill, is best done through practice.  I have hosted negotiation workshops.  The doctors start out terrible but can improve quickly.  Check with your local business college or physician leadership programs.

Reading is a good base, but not enough.  Try asking for more – on small stuff.  Get a better hotel room, free side dish, extended warranty, etc.  Pretty soon you won’t hesitate to ask for another 100K at work!

After you finish Getting to Yes, I recommend Never Split the Difference (by Chris Voss a former FBI hostage negotiator) and Start With No (by Jim Camp).  They will help you to not be a pushover or at least nudge you in the direction of capturing more value.

For my other thoughts, if interested:

http://wealthydoc.com/blog/negotiation-how-good-are-you

Click to expand...

Can you really get a free side dish? I've tried that and waitor is always it'll cost ya ...

Upgrade room has worked randomly.

[WealthyDoc]

Complete_newbie wrote:

WealthyDoc wrote:

I agree that doctors tend to be poor negotiators.  They don’t want to offend, insult, confront, or appear greedy.  The other side may take advantage of this.

Acquiring this skill, as with any skill, is best done through practice.  I have hosted negotiation workshops.  The doctors start out terrible but can improve quickly.  Check with your local business college or physician leadership programs.

Reading is a good base, but not enough.  Try asking for more – on small stuff.  Get a better hotel room, free side dish, extended warranty, etc.  Pretty soon you won’t hesitate to ask for another 100K at work!

After you finish Getting to Yes, I recommend Never Split the Difference (by Chris Voss a former FBI hostage negotiator) and Start With No (by Jim Camp).  They will help you to not be a pushover or at least nudge you in the direction of capturing more value.

For my other thoughts, if interested:

http://wealthydoc.com/blog/negotiation-how-good-are-you

Click to expand…

Can you really get a free side dish? I’ve tried that and waitor is always it’ll cost ya …

Upgrade room has worked randomly.

Click to expand...

Well I gave kind of a silly example.  My point was just to look for ways to try to negotiate or at least get more of what you want.  So actually just trying to get more will make you a better negotiator, even if you never do get that side dish.  There are actually ways that work in that situation though.  The waiter has all of the power so using the "power of No" works best in those situations.  .. something along the lines of ... I heard good things about this side dish ... I was told to try it ... but I am spending all of my budget on what I ordered for dinner.  I would love a free sample of that so I could tell people how good it is... maybe on pinterest...etc.  "You likely will say no and I don't blame you".. since you have a business to run here ..Just tell me no please and I will stop asking you for it etc.. When offered the option of saying No people often will -surprisingly- do what you want.  I no longer spend my time "negotiating" these little things.  I focus on the 20% that accounts for 80% of time or money (e.g. housing, compensation, investment fees, cars, etc.).

[Zaphod]

WealthyDoc wrote:

Complete_newbie wrote:

WealthyDoc wrote:

I agree that doctors tend to be poor negotiators.  They don’t want to offend, insult, confront, or appear greedy.  The other side may take advantage of this.

Acquiring this skill, as with any skill, is best done through practice.  I have hosted negotiation workshops.  The doctors start out terrible but can improve quickly.  Check with your local business college or physician leadership programs.

Reading is a good base, but not enough.  Try asking for more – on small stuff.  Get a better hotel room, free side dish, extended warranty, etc.  Pretty soon you won’t hesitate to ask for another 100K at work!

After you finish Getting to Yes, I recommend Never Split the Difference (by Chris Voss a former FBI hostage negotiator) and Start With No (by Jim Camp).  They will help you to not be a pushover or at least nudge you in the direction of capturing more value.

For my other thoughts, if interested:

http://wealthydoc.com/blog/negotiation-how-good-are-you

Click to expand…

Can you really get a free side dish? I’ve tried that and waitor is always it’ll cost ya …

Upgrade room has worked randomly.

Click to expand…

Well I gave kind of a silly example.  My point was just to look for ways to try to negotiate or at least get more of what you want.  So actually just trying to get more will make you a better negotiator, even if you never do get that side dish.  There are actually ways that work in that situation though.  The waiter has all of the power so using the “power of No” works best in those situations.  .. something along the lines of … I heard good things about this side dish … I was told to try it … but I am spending all of my budget on what I ordered for dinner.  I would love a free sample of that so I could tell people how good it is… maybe on pinterest…etc.  “You likely will say no and I don’t blame you”.. since you have a business to run here ..Just tell me no please and I will stop asking you for it etc.. When offered the option of saying No people often will -surprisingly- do what you want.  I no longer spend my time “negotiating” these little things.  I focus on the 20% that accounts for 80% of time or money (e.g. housing, compensation, investment fees, cars, etc.).

Click to expand...

I thought of your post when watching "The Founder" last night, a great movie about McDonalds. Im sure Ray Kroc got way more than he should have just because he felt entitled and went for it. Very good movie if you like business and things of that nature.

I really like the idea of asking for small little things to just get better at this stuff. One of these days I will have to check out some of those books, great stuff. Also agree with conceding anything that is not a major contributor to overall goal, if someone thinks x is important but its neither here nor there to your end goal, than dont worry about it, appease them on your way to securing what you are interested in.

Sometimes even framing the math makes a big difference, and if the counter party is a busy person who has difficulty focusing on deeper levels than all the more better. I negotiated a raise for myself a couple years ago that looked small on a % change from prior and a concession from first ask but that really resulted in a raise of 25% overall, it was awesome. Since I focused on the way our pay was framed in the contract instead of a more appropriate and applicable metric it understated the true value. They probably would have stroked if I asked for a 25% increase instead of thought I settled for 5%. Also did this earlier in my time there to get some 1-2% drag fees removed, but again due to how things were calculated this was a 7-10% per month raise.

Find your advantage edge, best framing to put it into your favor, etc...Takes lots of practice to really be better, especially for us docs that are almost by nature non confrontational and agreeable.

[Complete_newbie]

Zaphod wrote:

WealthyDoc wrote:

Complete_newbie wrote:

WealthyDoc wrote:

I agree that doctors tend to be poor negotiators.  They don’t want to offend, insult, confront, or appear greedy.  The other side may take advantage of this.

Acquiring this skill, as with any skill, is best done through practice.  I have hosted negotiation workshops.  The doctors start out terrible but can improve quickly.  Check with your local business college or physician leadership programs.

Reading is a good base, but not enough.  Try asking for more – on small stuff.  Get a better hotel room, free side dish, extended warranty, etc.  Pretty soon you won’t hesitate to ask for another 100K at work!

After you finish Getting to Yes, I recommend Never Split the Difference (by Chris Voss a former FBI hostage negotiator) and Start With No (by Jim Camp).  They will help you to not be a pushover or at least nudge you in the direction of capturing more value.

For my other thoughts, if interested:

http://wealthydoc.com/blog/negotiation-how-good-are-you

Click to expand…

Can you really get a free side dish? I’ve tried that and waitor is always it’ll cost ya …

Upgrade room has worked randomly.

Click to expand…

Well I gave kind of a silly example.  My point was just to look for ways to try to negotiate or at least get more of what you want.  So actually just trying to get more will make you a better negotiator, even if you never do get that side dish.  There are actually ways that work in that situation though.  The waiter has all of the power so using the “power of No” works best in those situations.  .. something along the lines of … I heard good things about this side dish … I was told to try it … but I am spending all of my budget on what I ordered for dinner.  I would love a free sample of that so I could tell people how good it is… maybe on pinterest…etc.  “You likely will say no and I don’t blame you”.. since you have a business to run here ..Just tell me no please and I will stop asking you for it etc.. When offered the option of saying No people often will -surprisingly- do what you want.  I no longer spend my time “negotiating” these little things.  I focus on the 20% that accounts for 80% of time or money (e.g. housing, compensation, investment fees, cars, etc.).

Click to expand…

I thought of your post when watching “The Founder” last night, a great movie about McDonalds. Im sure Ray Kroc got way more than he should have just because he felt entitled and went for it. Very good movie if you like business and things of that nature.

I really like the idea of asking for small little things to just get better at this stuff. One of these days I will have to check out some of those books, great stuff. Also agree with conceding anything that is not a major contributor to overall goal, if someone thinks x is important but its neither here nor there to your end goal, than dont worry about it, appease them on your way to securing what you are interested in.

Sometimes even framing the math makes a big difference, and if the counter party is a busy person who has difficulty focusing on deeper levels than all the more better. I negotiated a raise for myself a couple years ago that looked small on a % change from prior and a concession from first ask but that really resulted in a raise of 25% overall, it was awesome. Since I focused on the way our pay was framed in the contract instead of a more appropriate and applicable metric it understated the true value. They probably would have stroked if I asked for a 25% increase instead of thought I settled for 5%. Also did this earlier in my time there to get some 1-2% drag fees removed, but again due to how things were calculated this was a 7-10% per month raise.

Find your advantage edge, best framing to put it into your favor, etc…Takes lots of practice to really be better, especially for us docs that are almost by nature non confrontational and agreeable.

Click to expand...

Great points both.

Will check out those books and the movie.

The problem with me is that yes I can play hardball and get what I want but then the "volunteer"/doctor in me thinks something along the likes of - "did I really need to argue and get that deal"? Is it really making a big difference in my life? I appeared terrible to that person and that person now will hate me etc etc. Its doable but unless it is substantially changing my life it seems like I was a jerk.

Anyways, just some thoughts.

[Zaphod]

Complete_newbie wrote:

Zaphod wrote:

WealthyDoc wrote:

Complete_newbie wrote:

WealthyDoc wrote:

I agree that doctors tend to be poor negotiators.  They don’t want to offend, insult, confront, or appear greedy.  The other side may take advantage of this.

Acquiring this skill, as with any skill, is best done through practice.  I have hosted negotiation workshops.  The doctors start out terrible but can improve quickly.  Check with your local business college or physician leadership programs.

Reading is a good base, but not enough.  Try asking for more – on small stuff.  Get a better hotel room, free side dish, extended warranty, etc.  Pretty soon you won’t hesitate to ask for another 100K at work!

After you finish Getting to Yes, I recommend Never Split the Difference (by Chris Voss a former FBI hostage negotiator) and Start With No (by Jim Camp).  They will help you to not be a pushover or at least nudge you in the direction of capturing more value.

For my other thoughts, if interested:

http://wealthydoc.com/blog/negotiation-how-good-are-you

Click to expand…

Can you really get a free side dish? I’ve tried that and waitor is always it’ll cost ya …

Upgrade room has worked randomly.

Click to expand…

Well I gave kind of a silly example.  My point was just to look for ways to try to negotiate or at least get more of what you want.  So actually just trying to get more will make you a better negotiator, even if you never do get that side dish.  There are actually ways that work in that situation though.  The waiter has all of the power so using the “power of No” works best in those situations.  .. something along the lines of … I heard good things about this side dish … I was told to try it … but I am spending all of my budget on what I ordered for dinner.  I would love a free sample of that so I could tell people how good it is… maybe on pinterest…etc.  “You likely will say no and I don’t blame you”.. since you have a business to run here ..Just tell me no please and I will stop asking you for it etc.. When offered the option of saying No people often will -surprisingly- do what you want.  I no longer spend my time “negotiating” these little things.  I focus on the 20% that accounts for 80% of time or money (e.g. housing, compensation, investment fees, cars, etc.).

Click to expand…

I thought of your post when watching “The Founder” last night, a great movie about McDonalds. Im sure Ray Kroc got way more than he should have just because he felt entitled and went for it. Very good movie if you like business and things of that nature.

I really like the idea of asking for small little things to just get better at this stuff. One of these days I will have to check out some of those books, great stuff. Also agree with conceding anything that is not a major contributor to overall goal, if someone thinks x is important but its neither here nor there to your end goal, than dont worry about it, appease them on your way to securing what you are interested in.

Sometimes even framing the math makes a big difference, and if the counter party is a busy person who has difficulty focusing on deeper levels than all the more better. I negotiated a raise for myself a couple years ago that looked small on a % change from prior and a concession from first ask but that really resulted in a raise of 25% overall, it was awesome. Since I focused on the way our pay was framed in the contract instead of a more appropriate and applicable metric it understated the true value. They probably would have stroked if I asked for a 25% increase instead of thought I settled for 5%. Also did this earlier in my time there to get some 1-2% drag fees removed, but again due to how things were calculated this was a 7-10% per month raise.

Find your advantage edge, best framing to put it into your favor, etc…Takes lots of practice to really be better, especially for us docs that are almost by nature non confrontational and agreeable.

Click to expand…

Great points both.

Will check out those books and the movie.

The problem with me is that yes I can play hardball and get what I want but then the “volunteer”/doctor in me thinks something along the likes of – “did I really need to argue and get that deal”? Is it really making a big difference in my life? I appeared terrible to that person and that person now will hate me etc etc. Its doable but unless it is substantially changing my life it seems like I was a jerk.

Anyways, just some thoughts.

Click to expand...

Well, the trick is to make the other party feel like they also won. You dont want to have to feel aggressive etc...thats where the psych part comes into things.

[Complete_newbie]

Zaphod wrote:

Complete_newbie wrote:

Zaphod wrote:

WealthyDoc wrote:

Complete_newbie wrote:

WealthyDoc wrote:

I agree that doctors tend to be poor negotiators.  They don’t want to offend, insult, confront, or appear greedy.  The other side may take advantage of this.

Acquiring this skill, as with any skill, is best done through practice.  I have hosted negotiation workshops.  The doctors start out terrible but can improve quickly.  Check with your local business college or physician leadership programs.

Reading is a good base, but not enough.  Try asking for more – on small stuff.  Get a better hotel room, free side dish, extended warranty, etc.  Pretty soon you won’t hesitate to ask for another 100K at work!

After you finish Getting to Yes, I recommend Never Split the Difference (by Chris Voss a former FBI hostage negotiator) and Start With No (by Jim Camp).  They will help you to not be a pushover or at least nudge you in the direction of capturing more value.

For my other thoughts, if interested:

http://wealthydoc.com/blog/negotiation-how-good-are-you

Click to expand…

Can you really get a free side dish? I’ve tried that and waitor is always it’ll cost ya …

Upgrade room has worked randomly.

Click to expand…

Well I gave kind of a silly example.  My point was just to look for ways to try to negotiate or at least get more of what you want.  So actually just trying to get more will make you a better negotiator, even if you never do get that side dish.  There are actually ways that work in that situation though.  The waiter has all of the power so using the “power of No” works best in those situations.  .. something along the lines of … I heard good things about this side dish … I was told to try it … but I am spending all of my budget on what I ordered for dinner.  I would love a free sample of that so I could tell people how good it is… maybe on pinterest…etc.  “You likely will say no and I don’t blame you”.. since you have a business to run here ..Just tell me no please and I will stop asking you for it etc.. When offered the option of saying No people often will -surprisingly- do what you want.  I no longer spend my time “negotiating” these little things.  I focus on the 20% that accounts for 80% of time or money (e.g. housing, compensation, investment fees, cars, etc.).

Click to expand…

I thought of your post when watching “The Founder” last night, a great movie about McDonalds. Im sure Ray Kroc got way more than he should have just because he felt entitled and went for it. Very good movie if you like business and things of that nature.

I really like the idea of asking for small little things to just get better at this stuff. One of these days I will have to check out some of those books, great stuff. Also agree with conceding anything that is not a major contributor to overall goal, if someone thinks x is important but its neither here nor there to your end goal, than dont worry about it, appease them on your way to securing what you are interested in.

Sometimes even framing the math makes a big difference, and if the counter party is a busy person who has difficulty focusing on deeper levels than all the more better. I negotiated a raise for myself a couple years ago that looked small on a % change from prior and a concession from first ask but that really resulted in a raise of 25% overall, it was awesome. Since I focused on the way our pay was framed in the contract instead of a more appropriate and applicable metric it understated the true value. They probably would have stroked if I asked for a 25% increase instead of thought I settled for 5%. Also did this earlier in my time there to get some 1-2% drag fees removed, but again due to how things were calculated this was a 7-10% per month raise.

Find your advantage edge, best framing to put it into your favor, etc…Takes lots of practice to really be better, especially for us docs that are almost by nature non confrontational and agreeable.

Click to expand…

Great points both.

Will check out those books and the movie.

The problem with me is that yes I can play hardball and get what I want but then the “volunteer”/doctor in me thinks something along the likes of – “did I really need to argue and get that deal”? Is it really making a big difference in my life? I appeared terrible to that person and that person now will hate me etc etc. Its doable but unless it is substantially changing my life it seems like I was a jerk.

Anyways, just some thoughts.

Click to expand…

Well, the trick is to make the other party feel like they also won. You dont want to have to feel aggressive etc…thats where the psych part comes into things.

Click to expand...

True. See I guess the real crux of matter I am getting to is how its different in the business world. A lot of business world is sale skills: You MAKE the other party buy things or sell things to them via constant assertions (you can read that as aggressive behaviour) and you are looking out for your business. True you are hopefully creating value but its more about what can I do to make the sale vs being nice. As doctors we decidedly do NOT do this. I have decent sale skills, but it is at odds with being a doctor etc.

Something to consider for people thinking of entrepreneurship: I have to deal with this dichotomy daily. If you are an unscrupulous doc only thinking about the next RVU then yes, this may come easier/natural to you (by you I mean not you Zaphod, its a general address)

[Drsan1]

One key factor in any negotiation whether it be a job, Cars, House is being willing to walk away. My last negotiation for a job went like this.

Hospital: Here is our offer

Me: Here is what I need to even consider your offer and leave my current position

Hospital: Here is our offer ( it was exactly the same as the initial offer)

Me: Thank you but I decline your offer ( we were worlds away)

a few weeks go by

Hospital: Here is our offer ( this one looked very similar to my requests, not exactly but very close)

 

I was truly willing to leave their offer on the table and look elsewhere. Don't bluff because it may not work put in your favor, if you have other options, you have the upper hand  

[YSH]

post deleted.  see above for attached quote.

[YSH]

DMAL wrote:

I guess they were miffed that I dared to ask? I don’t know. For relative newbies like me to the game of contract negotiations, its hard to gauge the line between being too nice vs being aggressive and “asking for what we deserve” Even more confusing when your asking was based on advise from apparent expert in contract negotiations , in my case Contract Diagnostics. As I move forward with other contracts, I’m looking at this recent experience and I’ll admit struggling to figure out what the lesson is and what, if anything, should I do different in the future. You’re right though. Their response does lead me to believe I may have dodged a bullet.

Click to expand...

Did you discuss this outcome with Contract Diagnostic?  Did they explain or offer insight as to what could have gone wrong?  I would think that that might be something they should be able to comment on (even if they were not actively negotiating with the other side on your behalf), since part of the reason you pay them was to assist you in your contract negotiation.

[DMAL]

YSH wrote:

DMAL wrote:

I guess they were miffed that I dared to ask? I don’t know. For relative newbies like me to the game of contract negotiations, its hard to gauge the line between being too nice vs being aggressive and “asking for what we deserve” Even more confusing when your asking was based on advise from apparent expert in contract negotiations , in my case Contract Diagnostics. As I move forward with other contracts, I’m looking at this recent experience and I’ll admit struggling to figure out what the lesson is and what, if anything, should I do different in the future. You’re right though. Their response does lead me to believe I may have dodged a bullet.

Click to expand…

Did you discuss this outcome with Contract Diagnostic?  Did they explain or offer insight as to what could have gone wrong?  I would think that that might be something they should be able to comment on (even if they were not actively negotiating with the other side on your behalf), since part of the reason you pay them was to assist you in your contract negotiation.

Click to expand...

I discussed briefly with them. Not much insight, other than they thought it was a strange response to request negotiate a contract. My guess is that maybe the numbers they suggested I ask for were probably exceedingly high for the area? Though they said their data says otherwise. So, honestly, idk.

[DMAL]

Drsan1 wrote:

One key factor in any negotiation whether it be a job, Cars, House is being willing to walk away. My last negotiation for a job went like this.

Hospital: Here is our offer

Me: Here is what I need to even consider your offer and leave my current position

Hospital: Here is our offer ( it was exactly the same as the initial offer)

Me: Thank you but I decline your offer ( we were worlds away)

a few weeks go by

Hospital: Here is our offer ( this one looked very similar to my requests, not exactly but very close)

 

I was truly willing to leave their offer on the table and look elsewhere. Don’t bluff because it may not work put in your favor, if you have other options, you have the upper hand

Click to expand...

Funny how that works. I just got contacted by them again, asking if I'd be interested in another position that will be opening up for them next year. But NO mention of previous contract or any of the questions or clarifications I had asked--- almost as if they had conveniently forgotten all the emails we'd exchanged regarding their contracts

[q-school]

have read a number of these books.

first thing i learned was it's not that easy to get skilled at negotiations.

yes you can convince a low level employee who doesn't care and doesn't have skin in the game to give you stuff, but other than getting used to asking on the margin, that doesn't really develop your negotiating skills in these circumstances.

 

in contrast to zaphod who i have huge respect for, having worked at small practices and the death star, if you were negotiating at the death star, it is uncommon for there to be a lot of flexibility in contract negotiations, and you should not take the heavy recruiting as anything more than incentivized employees doing their incentivized jobs.  you should not expect that the future contacts have anything to do with your being an awesome person, and more to do with completion of medical degree and training.  and the death star has people who will always be more experienced at negotiating than you.

we do behavioral interviews for all employees, including physicians.  we spend a lot of time trying to assess for cultural fit for new hires.  we still suck because people know how to game the system and are willing to lie about how they handle situations because getting a job offer and declining doesn't hurt the candidate.  personally i advise them all to get lawyers, if desired, to review the contracts but warn them that there are very few areas that are open to negotiation.   if you were to look at the final versions of contracts from lawyers and from people who went without they are virtually identical.

however, i remember many moons ago my first job.  they said all contracts are the same.  there is no room for negotiation.  here is the salary.  here is your vacation time.  here is the time to partnership.  here is the buy in.  we need to be fair to everyone.  so i sent it to lawyer, no changes advised and signed.  then the next guy got more vacation time and more money and i went to the hiring partner and basically said i feel lied to.  i truly feel he is an honest guy and his position was that those are details not worth talking about.  my position as a new hire i don't know about anything else to negotiate other than salary, vacation time, and partnership buy in?  so i learned that perspective matters and am careful in how i phrase things.  

generally speaking however, if a contract comes back to me more than twice, i just send them a thank you for considering us note because more often than not, the organization is not a good fit for their expectations and hiring them will be a huge pain in my ****************** down the road.  and they will be unhappy.  and they think they can request a lot of stuff because it makes them a tiny bit happier and doesn't cost them anything to request it.

ymmv.

good luck finding the right job!  just know there is always a leap of faith.  and if by chance it doesn't work out, there are many other jobs out there.  no reason to stay in a job that's not right for you.

 

[RogueDadMD]

WealthyDoc wrote:

I no longer spend my time “negotiating” these little things.  I focus on the 20% that accounts for 80% of time or money (e.g. housing, compensation, investment fees, cars, etc.).

Click to expand...

I've never tried to negotiate for a free side dish at dinner, but I am a big proponent of negotiating in most "small" circumstances where it's an allowable thing (buying furniture, home repairs, etc).  It often yields large savings (particularly relative to the low time investment).  If it doesn't, I am only out a small amount of time and I didn't really waste anything.

For those that don't want to negotiate they can just say no and I either accept it or move on without hard feelings either way.

I do work in a Death Star type environment, and even here it is possible to negotiate, however data is not the key. Many of these places know they are underpaying significantly relative to peers -- it's not a secret, so presenting them numbers or regional data doesn't influence things dramatically.   Being willing to walk away and not look back when they actually do need/want you is the key.