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  • Originally posted by AR View Post

    Yes to both. There is credible evidence to suggest that both of those things are true. Should take you 30 min at most on Google to find.
    Thanks for the hint. What is the efficacy in percentages. The specific question is vaccinated preventing any COVID infection. Just saying, there are quite a few vaccinated people catching COVID. We would not have this surge if vaccinates actual prevention was any where near the FDA 50% minimum. No Omicron surge.
    Current vaccines don’t prevent spread.and infection. That is what Pfizer and Moderns say.
    Need a new vaccine. Working on it, data not available. Maybe in March. Google it? The current vaccines would not have been approved for Omicron. Low efficacy.
    That doesn’t mean no benefit, just doesn’t prevent infection.

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    • Originally posted by Tim View Post
      What is the efficacy in percentages. The specific question is vaccinated preventing any COVID infection. Just saying, there are quite a few vaccinated people catching COVID. We would not have this surge if vaccinates actual prevention was any where near the FDA 50% minimum.
      The reports I have seen so far report that three mRNA doses prevented 37-54% of Omicron infections, prevented ~80% of hospitalizations and prevented >90% of severe disease and death. But you do need the three doses.

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      • Originally posted by Shant View Post

        The reports I have seen so far report that three mRNA doses prevented 37-54% of Omicron infections, prevented ~80% of hospitalizations and prevented >90% of severe disease and death. But you do need the three doses.
        I completely trust your info. The 37-54% is concerning. Anecdotally here and in my circle, once one household member gets it, everyone gets it to some degree. Something doesn’t line up.
        The hospitalizations and deaths are great and why I fully support vaccinations. Just not as preventing spread. Thank you for the info.
        By chance, do you have similar data for efficacy of prior COVID infections?
        By chance do you have similar data for unvaccinated without prior infection?
        Three categories would put to bed the yes/no unanswered questions.
        Your response is very helpful, I only wish the obvious questions would be answered by CDC, that has been the open question for it seems like an eternity. People will follow evidence based medical advice. Thank you for a direct answer.

        Note: We we’re “taught” the herd immunity was depending on vaccinations AND prior infections.
        Now prior infections have been discarded. But statistics have not be provided. That is why I asked this question. Are we out of this in March which was asked by many.
        Thank you..

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        • Originally posted by Tim View Post

          I completely trust your info. The 37-54% is concerning. Anecdotally here and in my circle, once one household member gets it, everyone gets it to some degree. Something doesn’t line up.
          The hospitalizations and deaths are great and why I fully support vaccinations. Just not as preventing spread. Thank you for the info.
          By chance, do you have similar data for efficacy of prior COVID infections?
          By chance do you have similar data for unvaccinated without prior infection?
          Three categories would put to bed the yes/no unanswered questions.
          Your response is very helpful, I only wish the obvious questions would be answered by CDC, that has been the open question for it seems like an eternity. People will follow evidence based medical advice. Thank you for a direct answer.

          Note: We we’re “taught” the herd immunity was depending on vaccinations AND prior infections.
          Now prior infections have been discarded. But statistics have not be provided. That is why I asked this question. Are we out of this in March which was asked by many.
          Thank you..
          I personally think we are well past the point where “herd immunity” is possible, if it was ever possible. I don’t know if the powers that be (CDC mostly) were being dishonest, or truly didn’t know, but to me now the idea of herd immunity for a coronavirus is a silly notion. Maybe another vaccine will be developed that will prove efficacious against all variants of Covid-19, but as we’ve seen, buyin for the general public will be difficult.

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          • Originally posted by MaxPower View Post

            I personally think we are well past the point where “herd immunity” is possible, if it was ever possible. I don’t know if the powers that be (CDC mostly) were being dishonest, or truly didn’t know, but to me now the idea of herd immunity for a coronavirus is a silly notion. Maybe another vaccine will be developed that will prove efficacious against all variants of Covid-19, but as we’ve seen, buyin for the general public will be difficult.
            I think you’re right. Especially with the number of people that have had previous infection and/or vaccinations that are getting omicron. I wonder if it will continue to get more milder and the vaccine becomes a recommendation for those that are high risk. Unfortunately if that’s the case, I think it’ll take governments a ways to get there from where many of them are at now.

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            • My bet -- It'll be like the flu shot with financials attached to it and how it played out in the Supreme Court as Covid19 becomes milder yet at elevated levels

              Medicare covered HCP: covid shot requirements remain

              Insurance companies: raise premiums across the board. Offers discounts for large scale covid vaccinated populations and Large companies create incentive plans for discounts for vaccinated while raising premiums across the board for 2023 open enrollment.

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              • Originally posted by Bmac View Post
                Data from Alberta shows hospitalization rate higher in unvaccinated 12-29 yo than 80+ 3-dose vaccinated.

                https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/14...065661440?s=21
                I've been thinking about this since I read it and my mind is still blown. I suspect we will never have solid data for severity of Omicron versus Alpha in the unvaccinated given that the pool of the unvaccinated is increasingly 'polluted' by prior infections.

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                • Originally posted by Shant View Post

                  I've been thinking about this since I read it and my mind is still blown. I suspect we will never have solid data for severity of Omicron versus Alpha in the unvaccinated given that the pool of the unvaccinated is increasingly 'polluted' by prior infections.
                  The data is absurd on its face, I'd like to see the primary source data, I suspect there are confounds.

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                  • What confounding factors would be more prevalent in the young uns than in the elders? I was thinking maybe it's demographics at play

                    Edit: data on conditions was at the link https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-1...ccine-outcomes

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                    • Originally posted by Shant View Post
                      What confounding factors would be more prevalent in the young uns than in the elders? I was thinking maybe it's demographics at play

                      Edit: data on conditions was at the link https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-1...ccine-outcomes
                      Look anywhere in the US and the hospitalization rate is highest for 70+ by 2-10 fold and they are far and away the most vaccinated group. We know that the breakthrough rate even for severe infection is highest in the elderly. And we know that people under 30 are at low risk of serious disease unless they have comorbidities, which a lot do to be sure. So this data makes no sense. Confounds likely include behavioral factors, such as unvaccinated 25 year olds being about 100 times more likely to go to a bar than 84 year old triple vaccinated grandma with COPD and heart disease.
                      Last edited by FIREshrink; 01-18-2022, 09:30 AM. Reason: 20 year olds shouldn't be going to bars

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                      • Originally posted by StarTrekDoc View Post
                        Yes, the general advice is to get boosted. It definitely helps in hospitalizations over the two shot regimen.

                        Hindsight for this all is the proper initial inoculation is a three shot regimen to get to sufficient levels. ....think hep b.
                        ​​​​​​
                        ​​​​​​The question that remains is whether a fourth shot/routine revised innoculations will be needed. The jury is still out on that. We simply don't know cause we're literally right in the middle of possible fourth shot benefits (Israel leading this at scale).

                        Tim. Definitely there is a lot of documentation to show the risk of hospitalizations and death for immunized is x14 + lower than unvaccinated.

                        The primary end points for all immunization are always death and hospitalizations with secondary as infections. People forget that original goals for the vaccine was an efficacy rate of 70% rate and we're very spoiled with the level of success against the initial virus.
                        So my CEO said the other day, trying to argue that the booster is likely unnecessary...
                        "When have we ever had a viral vaccine that has needed three shots?" I immediately said "Hep B..." (could have added HPV but he fairly religious guy and probably against it) He stammered and I said "Just be careful using that argument... didn't want someone else to bring it up to you."

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by SLC OB View Post

                          So my CEO said the other day, trying to argue that the booster is likely unnecessary...
                          "When have we ever had a viral vaccine that has needed three shots?" I immediately said "Hep B..." (could have added HPV but he fairly religious guy and probably against it) He stammered and I said "Just be careful using that argument... didn't want someone else to bring it up to you."
                          ah yes, the protective shield of religion against cancer...but let us not digress.

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                          • Originally posted by SLC OB View Post

                            So my CEO said the other day, trying to argue that the booster is likely unnecessary...
                            "When have we ever had a viral vaccine that has needed three shots?" I immediately said "Hep B..." (could have added HPV but he fairly religious guy and probably against it) He stammered and I said "Just be careful using that argument... didn't want someone else to bring it up to you."
                            Along with a host of pediatric initial immunizations. I hope he learned something from you vs shrugging it off and reuse it on his FB and Twitter accounts.

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                            • Originally posted by SLC OB View Post

                              So my CEO said the other day, trying to argue that the booster is likely unnecessary...
                              "When have we ever had a viral vaccine that has needed three shots?" I immediately said "Hep B..." (could have added HPV but he fairly religious guy and probably against it) He stammered and I said "Just be careful using that argument... didn't want someone else to bring it up to you."
                              You're way too nice

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                              • It is amazing to me how some people think needing to repeat every year is a reason to not get vaccinated at all. I presume they forego eating, sleeping and having sex for the same reason.

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