Medical Discussion of Coronavirus

[index2max]

Can you point me to some studies that show that natural immunity is sufficient for avoiding repeat covid infections, or that natural immunity alone is better than “natural immunity” + covid vaccination? Thanks.

I did not cite any studies to back up my personal opinion besides common sense.

"You have to take the vaccine or else mine won't work"

I don't think I've ever heard such talk about polio, smallpox or measles shots. I have no problem taking immunizations because they have stood the test of time.

If the covid shots are the best thing since sliced bread, why are "vaccinated" people so concerned about whether others took the jab?

[MaxPower]

I did not cite any studies to back up my personal opinion besides common sense.

"You have to take the vaccine or else mine won't work"

I don't think I've ever heard such talk about polio, smallpox or measles shots. I have no problem taking immunizations because they have stood the test of time.

If the covid shots are the best thing since sliced bread, why are "vaccinated" people so concerned about whether others took the jab?

I know you didn’t cite any studies to support your baseless (and wrong) opinion, which is why I asked for them. The problem is that your common sense isn’t supported by studies and scientific data. And someone who thinks polio, smallpox, measles, and covid are similar isn’t worth spending any more time discussing the issue with.

[G]

Don't think a doctor ever asked me to take a chicken pox vaccine, considering I caught it as a child decades ago!

Finish medical school. Then feel free to come back and contribute to the discussion.

[Kamban]

I think it's really creepy how hospitals and doctors are pressuring people into taking the Covid jab, even if you have natural immunity.

Don't think a doctor ever asked me to take a chicken pox vaccine, considering I caught it as a child decades ago!

Simple reverse psychology says that if you force someone into doing something that's "good for them" without sufficiently demonstrating why that thing is good, the individual will naturally resist.

I caught covid. The dry coughing for a week was not fun, but it wasn't the end of the world. I am young, healthy and love my natural immunity!

Oh no, not this again.

I don't have time to explain COVID Vs other vaccines you mentioned or the benefit of vaccination vs natural immunity ( even vaccine immunity wanes and needs booster).

But in a nutshell, it is a free world. Don't like it, don't work in the hospital setting.

[index2max]

Except your common sense isn’t supported by studies and scientific data. And someone who thinks polio, smallpox, measles, and covid are similar isn’t worth spending any more time discussing the issue with.

Well, guess you missed what I was trying to infer, but I'll be more explicit.

If I take a vaccine to protect myself against a disease and that vaccine is effective (say 99% effective), then why would I be worried about those who didn't take the same vaccine. I notice a lot of people who have taken the covid shot trying to shame others into taking the jab too. If your shot is effective and someone else doesn't want to take it, it's the other person's loss, end of discussion, right?

Finish medical school. Then feel free to come back and contribute to the discussion.

"Trust me, I am the expert".

How are you convincing anyone with an appeal to authority argument? This won't do any good to convince someone to take a covid vaccine, especially once they learn about how big pharma companies got a law passed in the 1980s absolving them of any legal liability for their vaccines (National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act).

[StarTrekDoc]

I did not cite any studies to back up my personal opinion besides common sense.

"You have to take the vaccine or else mine won't work"

I don't think I've ever heard such talk about polio, smallpox or measles shots. I have no problem taking immunizations because they have stood the test of time.

If the covid shots are the best thing since sliced bread, why are "vaccinated" people so concerned about whether others took the jab?

SARS-COV2 mutates quite readily if given the chance. That's not true for any those you cited. This virus can mutate enough to invalidate natural immunity as readily as vaccinated immunity so all should be concerned.

Some Common sense for common folk:

- Folk don't like seeing people suffer and die needlessly.
- They also don't like rationing care when it could have been avoided
- They also do what's good for society at large cause it makes common sense.

[G]

Well, guess you missed what I was trying to infer, but I'll be more explicit.

If I take a vaccine to protect myself against a disease and that vaccine is effective (say 99% effective), then why would I be worried about those who didn't take the same vaccine. I notice a lot of people who have taken the covid shot trying to shame others into taking the jab too. If your shot is effective and someone else doesn't want to take it, it's the other person's loss, end of discussion, right?



"Trust me, I am the expert".

How are you convincing anyone with an appeal to authority argument? This won't do any good to convince someone to take a covid vaccine, especially once they learn about how big pharma companies got a law passed in the 1980s absolving them of any legal liability for their vaccines (National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act).

Maybe you won't die. I truly don't care.

Thanks.

[snowcanyon]

Oh, look, Utah, Arizona, and South Carolina are trying to kill off their healthcare workers.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/19/business/economy/osha-covid-workplace-safety-states.html

[Otolith]

Anti vax argument always goes

1. "If I take a vaccine to protect myself against a disease and that vaccine is effective (say 99% effective), then why would I be worried about those who didn't take the same vaccine"

Then

2. "I am not getting vaccine it isn't even effective and doesn't stop the spread of the disease"


This is when I realize that the general public can't fathom the complexity of something being only partially effective say 80% (made up number).


index2max - I encourage you to look into "number needed to treat/vaccinate" similar to number needed to harm. While it may seem opposite to common sense, as effectiveness weakens the number needed to vaccinate becomes higher.

You are right though condescending judgment and forcing people is the wrong way.

Never have had a problem with people thinking natural immunity is best and vaccine isn't necessary for them... I just don't like that these people spread anti vax sentiment for people that could really benefit.

[Otolith]

- Folk don't like seeing people suffer and die needlessly.
- They also don't like rationing care when it could have been avoided
- They also do what's good for society at large cause it makes common sense.

Love this.
I had 101 yo patient yesterday talking about war drafts and WW2 times. He said "people today don't understand what it was like back then"

I said we cant even get people to take a vaccine could you imagine a draft...

[artemis]

SARS-COV2 mutates quite readily if given the chance. That's not true for any those you cited. This virus can mutate enough to invalidate natural immunity as readily as vaccinated immunity so all should be concerned.

Mutation isn’t even required (although I am sure it helps). For reasons we don’t fully understand immunity (either vaccinated or post-infection) to some viruses weakens over time; eventually it weakens enough to allow a breakthrough infection and symptomatic illness, which in some people can be severe. Other viruses produce a much stronger and more lasting immune response. The human immune system doesn’t respond equally strongly to everything.

Once the pandemic is over and SARS-CoV-2 has become an endemic pathogen which is circulating at low levels in the human population, immunizing everyone against it probably won’t be done. We’ll just recommend vaccinating those who are most vulnerable to severe illness, and probably certain groups like healthcare workers who may spread the disease to the vulnerable. But right now it is present at high levels, and immunization is needed to get those levels down. And people like Colin Powell are the reason why. I wonder how our young, banned med student would feel about people talking about COVID infection as if it was no big deal if HE had a hematologic malignancy?

[Tim]

SARS-COV2 mutates quite readily if given the chance. That's not true for any those you cited. This virus can mutate enough to invalidate natural immunity as readily as vaccinated immunity so all should be concerned.

Some Common sense for common folk:

- Folk don't like seeing people suffer and die needlessly.
- They also don't like rationing care when it could have been avoided
- They also do what's good for society at large cause it makes common sense.

I owe you much for the education and assistance getting vaccinated. I am common folk. However, the privileged, have different rules. And they are the ones that have the power to choose when and if rules are followed.

Like ignoring natural immunity, like in the shortage ramp up giving vaccine to over 200 foreign nationals, like giving boosters (mixing brand) prior to the rules or studies.

Common sense says “Ready, Fire ,AIM” is not the way to go. Dang these variants. Adjust the vaccine, you idiot. Does it make sense to keep missing the target?

If the vaccine can and should be adjusted, and if one already has natural immunity to to old one, then it seems both suck with the variants! Why is one better than the other?

Common sense says, there is no difference to either. Actually, some say natural has a better chance of blocking a variant.

If the variant is the problem, deal with it?

Reminder, common sense has always been scarce.

On a comic note, Peter Hotez is making the PR rounds locally that “his vaccine is being ignored”
and he is having to work with India because he was “locked out” by CDC and the big drug companies.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Hotez

All this talk about herd immunity and lowering the curve made common sense. Now it simply has not made sense. Common folk feel like cattle.
Personally, best available. I mixed the booster prior to approval.I hope it works.

I have a BIL , Covid , hospitalized, diabetes and heart problems, recovered, vaccinated and now back in the hospital with congestive heart problems. He needs to get the best available treatments. I think that is the common sense approach. At the hospital that the privileged CEO decided which rules were important. The one that fired healthcare workers that had natural immunity from infection and gave allocations to foreign nationals. Vaccine is not risky compared to the alternatives. I just wish the privileged weren’t so hypocritical.

I took a page out of your book. Wife is hesitant on a booster. If I mandate it, she will resist more. A kinder less confrontational approach seems to make sense. Best available is common sense.

Just a note on the draft. It worked because you would go to prison. Best alternative.

[Rando]

But right now it is present at high levels, and immunization is needed to get those levels down. And people like Colin Powell are the reason why.

This is more of a philosophical/ethical argument, but at-risk patients have always been out there and generally the responsibility for protecting them has been mainly on the patients themselves. We all have patients that have severe disease sufficient that even a minor URI can be lethal. We haven't built health policy around protecting them, and we probably shouldn't. We tell them and their relatives to be careful about exposure to illness, and in the case of COVID, to get vaccinated.

I understand the argument that COVID is so prevalent and unique that everybody has to pitch in to control it, but building health policy around protecting a small subset of the population isn't practical for very long.

[artemis]

The strength of a natural immune response and the rate at which it fades is highly variable. I would be fine with recognizing natural immunity as an alternative to vaccination provided that there is firm medical documentation of the date of Covid infection (none of this “I know I had Covid!“ crap) and that immunization is required six months after the infection (unless the person has been unfortunate enough to have a second documented Covid infection during that time).

Eventually we will figure out what level of antibody titer correlates with good protection, and we will be able to set titer levels as a screen for both vaccinated and unvaccinated people. We may get a good test of T cell response to Covid as well, which would also be extremely helpful.

[artemis]

This is more of a philosophical/ethical argument, but at-risk patients have always been out there and generally the responsibility for protecting them has been mainly on the patients themselves. We all have patients that have severe disease sufficient that even a minor URI can be lethal. We haven't built health policy around protecting them, and we probably shouldn't. We tell them and their relatives to be careful about exposure to illness, and in the case of COVID, to get vaccinated.

I understand the argument that COVID is so prevalent and unique that everybody has to pitch in to control it, but building health policy around protecting a small subset of the population isn't practical for very long.

That is the difference between a pandemic/epidemic and an endemic disease. In a pandemic or epidemic the pathogen is so prevalent that there is really no way that immunocompromised people can protect themselves solely through their own actions. The entire community needs to respond in order to lower the circulating level of the pathogen. With an endemic disease, the circulating pathogen is never present at high levels.