Medical Discussion of Coronavirus

[StarTrekDoc]

VentAlarm . You may want to.look at our history a but closer.

Our young constitutional government has a lengthy habit of forced quarantine and isolation along with mandates. Nothing new with COVID-19. It's been legislated, executive ordered and reinforced by the courts.

We can debate the whether it's applied correctly or no. To call it unAmerican is quite off the mark.

[snowcanyon]

Yea. I’m a fairly conservative evangelical. That being said, even Albert Mohler, the head of the Southern Baptist Convention, has openly supported the use of vaccines based on a biblical argument.

Without derailing the thread, his argument was two-fold: 1) God gave us science and he values the protection of life. 2) the harm from the use of fetal cell lines has already been done, is remote and is not being done for this vaccine.

It is very hard to use a logical Christian argument against the use of vaccines.

I think (essentially) every adult should get vaccinated, but I also strongly oppose the government mandating it - and the two are often conflated.

Well, many people won't get vaccinated without mandates (this is why California had to get rid of exemptions for public school after multiple measles outbreaks) so it really comes down to mandates, or many people won't get vaccinated. The fantasy that people will do the right thing is just that.

[VentAlarm]

VentAlarm . You may want to.look at our history a but closer.

Our young constitutional government has a lengthy habit of forced quarantine and isolation along with mandates. Nothing new with COVID-19. It's been legislated, executive ordered and reinforced by the courts.

We can debate the whether it's applied correctly or no. To call it unAmerican is quite off the mark.

I am aware that the SC has upheld vaccinate requirements. What I think is unacceptable is the complete abdication of any sort of responsibility of our legislature and vast overreach of the president. We have a separation of powers for a reason. Our Congress no longer legislates. On the other hand, our executive branch has become an elected king for four years. I would be shocked if the SC upheld the vaccinate mandate - I suspect it will be found outside of the limited scope of the executive branch. Unfortunately, Biden had no intention of honoring his oath of office as demonstrated by his open statements in the CDC eviction moratorium. I think he knows it will be struck down, but figures it will take months before being formally heard and will have had it’s intended effects by thing.

[VentAlarm]

Well, many people won't get vaccinated without mandates (this is why California had to get rid of exemptions for public school after multiple measles outbreaks) so it really comes down to mandates, or many people won't get vaccinated. The fantasy that people will do the right thing is just that.

Maybe. But striving for government coerced utopia has failed to produce a better living environment than a free society to date.

[Tim]

VentAlarm . You may want to.look at our history a but closer.

Our young constitutional government has a lengthy habit of forced quarantine and isolation along with mandates. Nothing new with COVID-19. It's been legislated, executive ordered and reinforced by the courts.

We can debate the whether it's applied correctly or no. To call it unAmerican is quite off the mark.

The only problem is that the vaccine and testing are not being applied equally. Only citizens and other selected people are required. Some select few seem to be completely exempt for only one border. That would hinder a different executive order. Alot of contradictions and the people it applies to aren't unAmerican, they are not citizens. Not meant to "trigger", but the exceptions made for covid seem to be targeted towards political motives. Not intended to spark a political debate, just saying there are inconsistencies in dealing with all things Covid.

[snowcanyon]

Maybe. But striving for government coerced utopia has failed to produce a better living environment than a free society to date.

I assume you are against school vaccine mandates, seatbelt laws, drunk driving laws, and any laws limiting pregnancy termination, too?

[VentAlarm]

I assume you are against school vaccine mandates, seatbelt laws, drunk driving laws, and any laws limiting pregnancy termination, too?

I assume you’re not making an attempt at engaging in intelligent conversation.

[VentAlarm]

VentAlarm . You may want to.look at our history a but closer.

Our young constitutional government has a lengthy habit of forced quarantine and isolation along with mandates. Nothing new with COVID-19. It's been legislated, executive ordered and reinforced by the courts.

We can debate the whether it's applied correctly or no. To call it unAmerican is quite off the mark.

Also, I think it is intellectually dishonest to use a 100 year old precedent evaluating a mandated vaccine on something with a case fatality rate of 1/3 in a small, densely populated area as compared to something with a case fatality rate of ~1/200, probably closer to 1/1000-1/10,000 in certain populations across an entire massively geographically diverse country.

[snowcanyon]

Also, I think it is intellectually dishonest to use a 100 year old precedent evaluating a mandated vaccine on something with a case fatality rate of 1/3 in a small, densely populated area as compared to something with a case fatality rate of ~1/200, probably closer to 1/1000-1/10,000 in certain populations across an entire massively geographically diverse country.

Oh, here we go. It's just the flu. Got it.

[snowcanyon]

I assume you’re not making an attempt at engaging in intelligent conversation.

OK, so what about other vaccine laws?
Schools? Immigration?
Should they go?

[Kamban]

As legislated, not dictated by the king….I mean, president.

You really think the bunch of idiots on both sides of the aisle can legislate anything?? They are worse than a bunch of children who squabble.

Even as a mild conservative I admire this POTUS with dementia ( or his handlers) are achieving something that the people who should do their job, won't.

As to no mandate, you know what happens if there is no mandate in healthcare. One system will not mandate it because it will cause depletion of staff to the competing health system because they don't have the mandate. The other system will also not do it because the first one is not doing it. The patients and workers in both system will benefit in the end if all had mandate but no one wants to be the first. Same in education where some schools have mandates and others don't and the young unvaccinated suffer. And in other fields too. So it is best to have mandate for all to cut through this bull**it.

In economics the term used is tragedy of the commons and here the resource being depleted is either workers or children's education or money. Everyone is acting in their own selfish interest.

[VentAlarm]

OK, so what about other vaccine laws?
Schools? Immigration?
Should they go?

Your condescension aside, no. We live in a society with rules that restrict personal liberties and that is often a good thing. As above, what is not a good thing is an unchecked president who functions like an elected king. We have a means for establishing laws which involves Congress. This bypassed Congress. And again, the argument for mandatory vaccines against smallpox in a geographically limited area is vastly different than a nationwide requirement for something with a low case fatality rate.

And don’t come at me with the nonsense about Covid not being serious. I didn’t say that. I promise you, I've signed more death certificates on patients who died from Covid in the past 6 months than you. I rounded on 30 patients a day, >75% on the vent, all with covid for a month straight recently. I understand what Covid is and what it isn’t. Unlike most who say they are listening to “the science,” I am actually letting data inform my decisions. I think some cohorts would be insane not to get the vaccine, but that doesn’t mean I think everyone should be required to do so. Further, we are still sorting this out. On another thread, someone said they thought the rate of serious adverse events from Covid was likely an order of magnitude greater than the risk of the vaccine. They used this as an example of why they wanted to enroll their kids in vaccine trials. A study just came out saying that the risk of only myocarditis is 4x the risk of hospitalization from Covid in healthy young males.

If you want to dismiss me as an antivaxxer who is dissiminating misinformation, fine. You’re wrong, but fine. If you want to engage in actual conversation, I’m happy to.

[VentAlarm]

You really think the bunch of idiots on both sides of the aisle can legislate anything?? They are worse than a bunch of children who squabble.

Even as a mild conservative I admire this POTUS with dementia ( or his handlers) are achieving something that the people who should do their job, won't.

As to no mandate, you know what happens if there is no mandate in healthcare. One system will not mandate it because it will cause depletion of staff to the competing health system because they don't have the mandate. The other system will also not do it because the first one is not doing it. The patients and workers in both system will benefit in the end if all had mandate but no one wants to be the first. Same in education where some schools have mandates and others don't and the young unvaccinated suffer. And in other fields too. So it is best to have mandate for all to cut through this bull**it.

In economics the term used is tragedy of the commons and here the resource being depleted is either workers or children's education or money. Everyone is acting in their own selfish interest.

So what do you propose? We throw out our constitution? I think the more appropriate response is we throw out our congress. Saying you are happy with this government overreach is a very dangerous thing - the next one may not be something you view as beneficial.

[billy]

Also, I think it is intellectually dishonest to use a 100 year old precedent evaluating a mandated vaccine on something with a case fatality rate of 1/3 in a small, densely populated area as compared to something with a case fatality rate of ~1/200, probably closer to 1/1000-1/10,000 in certain populations across an entire massively geographically diverse country.

Case fatality is ~1.6/100, not 1/200. 673k deaths in 42 million cases. Why do people keep forgetting to turn it into a percentage if going per 100 cases? Granted certain populations its less.

[VentAlarm]

Case fatality is ~1.6/100, not 1/200. 673k deaths in 42 million cases. Why do people keep forgetting to turn it into a percentage if going per 100 cases? Granted certain populations its less.

That includes the beginning of the pandemic prior to dex and remdesivir. It is also upwardly biased as it depends on confirmed cases. The case fatality rate has since dropped.