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  • Originally posted by G View Post

    1) I foresee vigorous opposition and court battles.
    I think you can count on it. This sort of mandate is going to be tough to administer. I guess he's using OSHA to come up with the exact standards. How is OSHA going to use workplace safety to justify vaccination for an employee who works remotely, as one example?

    And they're allowing religious exemptions which my guess is will be used extensively.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Rando View Post

      I think you can count on it. This sort of mandate is going to be tough to administer. I guess he's using OSHA to come up with the exact standards. How is OSHA going to use workplace safety to justify vaccination for an employee who works remotely, as one example?

      And they're allowing religious exemptions which my guess is will be used extensively.
      Church of the Maskless, no proof required or attendance, no doctrine or religious practices except one..

      Comment


      • I don't see insurance companies fighting this. Nor major hospital systems either. Medicare - mandate - gotta comply. Sure there will some systems that may sue for this; but medicare has some strong legs. Even OCP mandate for insurance took 2 years to get through the courts to clarify that insurances can opt out on religious exemptions of the OCP mandate.

        Whereas medicare simply saying -- we ain't paying you if you don't provide x level of care. Hospitals aren't going to risk that level of consternation and simply roll over and say ' they made us do it'. Fed providing cover.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Rando View Post

          I think you can count on it. This sort of mandate is going to be tough to administer. I guess he's using OSHA to come up with the exact standards. How is OSHA going to use workplace safety to justify vaccination for an employee who works remotely, as one example?

          And they're allowing religious exemptions which my guess is will be used extensively.
          Vaccines are very serious business. That is why so many have taken it.There is no denying that this administration has politicized it. Trump is actually not a revered honored leader. He is a symbol of resistance to an expanding government control. The vaccine is a symbol of resistance.Today the government confirmed the suspicion that although vaccines and masks are not within the legal bounds of governance, they will go to any length to enforce compliance with whatever they want. They have said they don't have the authority to mandate vaccines. But they will use any possible technique to force compliance with their will. This may be good for fighting Covid. Is it good for the rest of their agenda? That is the line that has been crossed only on this issue. Divisive makes no difference. Government of the people is now campaign slogans on virtually every issue. No need to raise political issues on a financial forum.
          The whole machinery of the US government is being transformed to support and enforce many agendas besides the pandemic. Consent of the governed is for some is at the core of our democracy, with respect for the minorities. The reality is a large segment of our population does not support actions taken by the government.
          Targeting the minority to force compliance with any directive is not leadership. It is governing by decree without admittedly having legal authority. The point is, vaccines are symbolic for most with a resistance to government using the ends to justify the means. Many vaccinated have not consented to government by decree but have chosen to bypass the vaccines or masks as an issue to be good citizens on this issue. Unfortunately, this isn't the only issue. Too bad it is politicized.

          Comment


          • Agree that people taking the stance of me vs government -- just the hill is the absolute wrong hill to die (literally) on.

            Most of the political leaders of this freedom movement for the most part have taken the vaccine while some have danced around their vaccine status (Ie yes, they got it, but don't want to admit it)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by StarTrekDoc View Post
              Agree that people taking the stance of me vs government -- just the hill is the absolute wrong hill to die (literally) on.
              Capital Hill was not a hill to die upon either. Troops will be back in DC. We are touching the edge of in the minds of some. Make no mistake, this administration has demonstrated the desire to press its agenda at any cost. To a point, I think Fauci had a role in politicizing of healthcare. No gain of function in the Wuhan Lab.
              There is zero accountability to the citizens of either persuasion.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tim View Post

                Vaccines are very serious business. That is why so many have taken it.There is no denying that this administration has politicized it. Trump is actually not a revered honored leader. He is a symbol of resistance to an expanding government control. The vaccine is a symbol of resistance.Today the government confirmed the suspicion that although vaccines and masks are not within the legal bounds of governance, they will go to any length to enforce compliance with whatever they want. They have said they don't have the authority to mandate vaccines. But they will use any possible technique to force compliance with their will. This may be good for fighting Covid. Is it good for the rest of their agenda? That is the line that has been crossed only on this issue. Divisive makes no difference. Government of the people is now campaign slogans on virtually every issue. No need to raise political issues on a financial forum.
                The whole machinery of the US government is being transformed to support and enforce many agendas besides the pandemic. Consent of the governed is for some is at the core of our democracy, with respect for the minorities. The reality is a large segment of our population does not support actions taken by the government.
                Targeting the minority to force compliance with any directive is not leadership. It is governing by decree without admittedly having legal authority. The point is, vaccines are symbolic for most with a resistance to government using the ends to justify the means. Many vaccinated have not consented to government by decree but have chosen to bypass the vaccines or masks as an issue to be good citizens on this issue. Unfortunately, this isn't the only issue. Too bad it is politicized.
                I read this three times and have no idea what you are talking about

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tim View Post
                  Capital Hill was not a hill to die upon either. Troops will be back in DC. We are touching the edge of in the minds of some. Make no mistake, this administration has demonstrated the desire to press its agenda at any cost. To a point, I think Fauci had a role in politicizing of healthcare. No gain of function in the Wuhan Lab.
                  There is zero accountability to the citizens of either persuasion.
                  Again, I read this three times and have no idea what you are talking about
                  you ok?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by G View Post

                    1) I foresee vigorous opposition and court battles. Isn't this how policy is created these days?
                    2) I get the finances, but things are much worse now than when all non-emergent procedures were banned last year....

                    My system will hold out until the last second, no doubt. Freaks. And the OSHA mandate won't apply to us as we have our own OSHA, which is ignoring everything else Big OSHA has demanded.
                    But I think CMS mandates tend to have legs- are they really going to risk nonpayment from Medicare?
                    My guess is that this won't be in place until January, though, and that gives me pause.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by childay View Post

                      Wonder how many got out of it with some lame made-up medical/religious exemption..
                      About 1800 so a little north of 33k are vaccinated

                      Comment


                      • Re Biden's executive orders (or whatever the official term is) I think from a health standpoint there is no doubt it's a positive. The more people that are vaccinated the better. We aren't just protecting the unvaccinated, we're protecting our hospital system, colleagues and co-workers from being overwhelmed.

                        I'm not comfortable with the action itself though. The increased use of executive orders over the past four presidents is a dangerous trend. Any powers granted to this president will be used by future presidents whether they are competent or not. Up until now it's been commonly accepted that the federal government doesn't hold much power over public health, rather it's been delegated to states and municipalities..

                        And of course it's being viewed as a partisan action. While we may look at it as a purely health-related move, in social media it's commonly viewed as a win by one party over the other.



                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by PedsCCM View Post

                          About 1800 so a little north of 33k are vaccinated
                          I'd take that!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by childay View Post

                            As I sit here in corn teen post-vaccine, I would worry about it. Depends on the urgency of the procedures. Would be less worried after booster so maybe postpone.
                            Corn teen... that took me a second.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Rando View Post
                              Re Biden's executive orders (or whatever the official term is) I think from a health standpoint there is no doubt it's a positive. The more people that are vaccinated the better. We aren't just protecting the unvaccinated, we're protecting our hospital system, colleagues and co-workers from being overwhelmed.

                              I'm not comfortable with the action itself though. The increased use of executive orders over the past four presidents is a dangerous trend. Any powers granted to this president will be used by future presidents whether they are competent or not. Up until now it's been commonly accepted that the federal government doesn't hold much power over public health, rather it's been delegated to states and municipalities..

                              And of course it's being viewed as a partisan action. While we may look at it as a purely health-related move, in social media it's commonly viewed as a win by one party over the other.


                              True. It's yet another twist in the world where Legislatures do nothing or worse, abdicate all responsibility (Texas law that throws enforcement to the individual vigilante for enforcement). Overreach of executive branch power, and courts legislating from the bench (because said legislatures wont).

                              I see it as a complete failure of one of branches of government that's lost the will/fortitude/gumption to do their part. That's on both parties as it does really take two to dance....otherwise unless you're John Travolta, dancing by yourself makes one look like a bit of a fool.

                              Comment


                              • So cal hospitalist here (Los Angeles area, and occasionally a small hospital in the Inland empire.) Covid census is down a decent amount. On my last 2 weeks, all were unvaccinated except for one - elderly cancer patient who received his last cycle of chemo/rad a couple months ago. Most of the patients were overweight but fairy youngish (30-50s).

                                pretty much seems to follow what we know, and to me at least it offers very reassuring evidence for the vaccine.

                                my peds colleagues say they getting hit “hard” but I don’t know what that entails.

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