Medical Discussion of Coronavirus

[FIREshrink]

Thank god, as has been said a million times already, this has already been decided previously and reinstated recently, by the US SUPREME COURT.

If not this then what? Some of the extraneous examples you've provided are just straw men.

Seriously, many need to readjust their focus or content or whatever you're consuming that is causing this inability to logically and objectively assess reality.

This is an embarrassing lack of critical thinking in a domain that should be bread and butter.

SCOTUS decision from 1905, reaffirmed 22 years later, which was also used to justify Buck vs Bell? Do you not think century old SCOTUS precedent is sometimes overturned? Do you really think a society wide mandate would survive a challenge to today's SCOTUS?

Many SCOTUS decisions are bad ones and later overturned (ie, Dred Scott).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_v._Bell

Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200 (1927), is a decision of the United States Supreme Court, written by Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., in which the Court ruled that a state statute permitting compulsory sterilization of the unfit, including the intellectually disabled, "for the protection and health of the state" did not violate the Due Process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.[1] Despite the changing attitudes in the coming decades regarding sterilization, the Supreme Court has never expressly overturned Buck v. Bell.[2

[Kamban]

Yes. I hear about how all these nurses, first responders, law enforcement officers, etc. are going to be quitting or get fired for not complying with vaccination mandates and just wonder how likely it is that they will actually go through with it. It doesn't seem to me that most folks, when push comes to shove, will have the wherewithal to leave a good paying job in the place that they live and completely uproot their lives in order to avoid a vaccine.

Not to make it political but this reminds me of those democrats who did not want to stay in state and do their duty and flew in chartered planes with beer and goodies to D.C. Initially they were welcomed and feted but as time went on those hosts got tired of them and they got tired of living in DC. Now they are meekly returning back to Texas.

Or similar to those people who promise to move up North when one POTUS they hate wins, but never do.

It is all a pompous bluff. All words and no action. In the end, they will just stay at home and obey the orders.

[billy]

Not to make it political but this reminds me of those democrats who did not want to stay in state and do their duty and flew in chartered planes with beer and goodies to D.C. Initially they were welcomed and feted but as time went on those hosts got tired of them and they got tired of living in DC. Now they are meekly returning back to Texas.

Or similar to those people who promise to move up North when one POTUS they hate wins, but never do.

It is all a pompous bluff. All words and no action. In the end, they will just stay at home and obey the orders.

Especially since many who make those bluffs are the types who never left the town they grew up in.

[G]

I only know one person a 30yo colleague who reported severe flu-like to the first Moderna. Their second was similar but not as severe. They weren’t put off by it and assume a robust response.

I admitted a couple weak/febrile older folks (I assume the fever was from the vax, but wasn't positive). I admitted one 12 yo who would NOT stop vomiting. All of these were soon after second dose.

I felt fine after 1, completely and utterly wretched after my 2nd. Shaking chills, sweating, myalgias...I was too prostrate to get out of bed for the thermometer.

[I assume] it is better than getting COVID.

Multiple vaccinated docs here have gotten it. Some sicker than others. To my knowledge, none hospitalized. All inconvenienced and/or financially hit due to quarantine protocols.

[shady]

Mid 30s. I received my 3rd Moderna 7 months after my initial series. With my first 2 injections I felt nothing aside from expected mild arm soreness. With 3rd injection I felt warm for 24hrs and mildly nauseous but I was also on call the night of the injection, got no sleep, and wore lead for 7 cases the next day so can’t say whether it was the vaccine or the circumstances. Even if vax related it wasn’t bad at all.

[Lithium]

I agree with that! Before COVID, I made a point every year of going on a vacation to a remote place where I would not be easily reachable by email or phone. And I just got back from the Nebraska Star Party, held in the Sand Hills of central Nebraska where the largest "big city" is Valentine (population 2,000). If this was still the late 1800s, Cherry County, Nebraska, would meet the legal definition for frontier, its population is so low.

But I know from experience that most people are bouncing off the walls with boredom after spending more than a week or so in a place like that. Most people just don't have what it takes to live in a truly small town in a real rural area.

I saw a poll that says that about 11% of Americans have never left the state they were born in. Suffice it to say I think they have no idea how desolate some areas are in the lower 48. There are small towns, and then there are places where the nearest Wal Mart is 3 hours away. Even if you no longer have any use for society, you basically have to accept that reasonable health care is completely unavailable.

[StarTrekDoc]

Well I dont think it is a ridiculous comparison. I mean you have people telling others who dont want to get a vaccine that they are potentially killing others by passing on the virus and then in the other situation you are killing another human directly. Obviously you have different views and no need to speak to it any further but the hypocrisy is not lost on me. My body/my choice in the right situation I guess.

It's a poor comparison. Choice issue? yes, but different venues.

One is personal domain. King/Queen of own home/household. -- personal choice reigns supreme.
Other is public domain. Individual choice does NOT reign supreme since multiple shared households affected by common shared benefit will take precedence.

A closer public domain comparison would be smoking. Personal choice to do something to your own body is fine; however, that personal choice cannot be impacted or chosen in a public domain without certain acceptable curbs. You choose to smoke; you have to do it with xx restrictions.

[Lordosis]

[I assume] it is better than getting COVID.

Multiple vaccinated docs here have gotten it. Some sicker than others. To my knowledge, none hospitalized. All inconvenienced and/or financially hit due to quarantine protocols.

That sums it up very well. In my case the disease was worse than the vaccine. But I did not have a strong reaction to either. However being stuck on quarantine for seven more days after feeling better was annoying. And then my wife being stuck on quarantine for another week and a half after that was even more annoying. And if a booster would have avoided almost 3 weeks of family shut down I am all for it. Not to mention the fact that our courses were likely more mild than they would have been otherwise and the small but real chance of major complications.

[StateOfMyHead]

I saw a poll that says that about 11% of Americans have never left the state they were born in. Suffice it to say I think they have no idea how desolate some areas are in the lower 48. There are small towns, and then there are places where the nearest Wal Mart is 3 hours away. Even if you no longer have any use for society, you basically have to accept that reasonable health care is completely unavailable.

Yep, I doubt most of those saying they will quit actually will quit and if they do going to remote location, where a large number of residents don't believe in the risk of COVID, at a hospital likely overrun with COVID cases doesn't sound appealing to me even with a hefty bonus. I'm guessing we will see MSN stories about healthcare workers who did just that and contracted COVID with a poor outcome which would be unfortunate.

[Zaphod]

SCOTUS decision from 1905, reaffirmed 22 years later, which was also used to justify Buck vs Bell? Do you not think century old SCOTUS precedent is sometimes overturned? Do you really think a society wide mandate would survive a challenge to today's SCOTUS?

Many SCOTUS decisions are bad ones and later overturned (ie, Dred Scott).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_v._Bell

Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200 (1927), is a decision of the United States Supreme Court, written by Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., in which the Court ruled that a state statute permitting compulsory sterilization of the unfit, including the intellectually disabled, "for the protection and health of the state" did not violate the Due Process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.[1] Despite the changing attitudes in the coming decades regarding sterilization, the Supreme Court has never expressly overturned Buck v. Bell.[2

This was literally reaffirmed 2 weeks ago for Indiana State University, they were summarily denied and not even given a thought to argue the case.

[StarTrekDoc]

This was literally reaffirmed 2 weeks ago for Indiana State University, they were summarily denied and not even given a thought to argue the case.

By Barrett no less

[FIREshrink]

This was literally reaffirmed 2 weeks ago for Indiana State University, they were summarily denied and not even given a thought to argue the case.

There is no argument that schools and hospitals have this right, the question is about much broader mandates - I'm sure that's clear in my post.

[Kamban]

Well I dont think it is a ridiculous comparison. I mean you have people telling others who dont want to get a vaccine that they are potentially killing others by passing on the virus and then in the other situation you are killing another human directly. Obviously you have different views and no need to speak to it any further but the hypocrisy is not lost on me. My body/my choice in the right situation I guess.

I have no problem with people who chose not to get the vaccine. But then they want other things also to remain the same and it won't

1. You cannot expect to keep your job and not be vaccinated if your employer mandates the vaccine. They might have their reasons, from protecting other employees, clients and even reduced liability. They might get discounts on their insurance premiums. So if you don't want to comply with it, you can quit or be fired. And no unemployment payments either.

2. The venues like grocery stores, bars, restaurants, sports venues can mandate it for the aforementioned reasons. Their own the place, they make the rules. So either comply or don't go there but don't whine about it.

3. Many universities are moving that way too. Soon it will be the schools with similar mandates. You want to get educated, do it online if you can. Or be without education.

4. When you get sick from COVID, don't expect everyone to drop everything and take care of you as if you are the only one. There are others who have other sickness too and they matter more to me than your COVID that you got from your non vaccinated status.

Your freedom comes with some restrictions. In today's environment, you can't have the cake and eat it too.

P.S You is not you, but the unvaccinated.

[Tim]

I have no problem with people who chose not to get the vaccine. But then they want other things also to remain the same and it won't

1. You cannot expect to keep your job and not be vaccinated if your employer mandates the vaccine. They might have their reasons, from protecting other employees, clients and even reduced liability. They might get discounts on their insurance premiums. So if you don't want to comply with it, you can quit or be fired. And no unemployment payments either.

2. The venues like grocery stores, bars, restaurants, sports venues can mandate it for the aforementioned reasons. Their own the place, they make the rules. So either comply or don't go there but don't whine about it.

3. Many universities are moving that way too. Soon it will be the schools with similar mandates. You want to get educated, do it online if you can. Or be without education.

4. When you get sick from COVID, don't expect everyone to drop everything and take care of you as if you are the only one. There are others who have other sickness too and they matter more to me than your COVID that you got from your non vaccinated status.

Your freedom comes with some restrictions. In today's environment, you can't have the cake and eat it too.

P.S You is not you, but the unvaccinated.

All of the above are true. The devil is in the details of the mandates and enforcement. There is a big difference between "zero tolerance" and focusing on the objective. Both sides need to make reasonable efforts to comply with the mandates and the mandates need to have reasonable terms.

[Zaphod]

All of the above are true. The devil is in the details of the mandates and enforcement. There is a big difference between "zero tolerance" and focusing on the objective. Both sides need to make reasonable efforts to comply with the mandates and the mandates need to have reasonable terms.

If the terms are too reasonable they are not mandates.