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  • Originally posted by FIREshrink View Post
    The last three responses all make a good argument for individuals to choose to be vaccinated. My question is about mandates, which can only exist to protect others. If vaccinated and unvaccinated have the same viral loads they may be equally capable of shedding and spreading. In that case, I'm not protecting anyone else by getting vaccinated, only myself, and I don't see how a free society could mandate individuals take medicine which only protects themselves.
    I am pretty sure that initially the viral load is the same for unvax/vax for a breakthrough infection. But the vax group viral load drops faster and thus gets less contagious sooner than unvax. There is a study with this info, but I don't have it. And, yes, this excludes the fact that the vax group is less likely to get COVID in the first place.
    Last edited by JWeb; 08-30-2021, 10:29 AM.

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    • I have a couple patients who had such a severe reaction to their first vaccine they refuse to get the second. Has anybody heard about how people are tolerating the boosters?

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      • Originally posted by Rando View Post
        I have a couple patients who had such a severe reaction to their first vaccine they refuse to get the second. Has anybody heard about how people are tolerating the boosters?
        I got the moderna booster after 2 pfizers. I felt really bad for a day. No serious side effect. Just nausea, extreme fatigue, chills. Injection wheal less than second pfizer.

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        • Originally posted by billy View Post

          That they would have already been denied if they didnt follow the previous vaccine mandates?

          public school for NYS vaccine mandates for instance: https://www.health.ny.gov/prevention...hool_vaccines/

          So what makes covid vaccine so special to not require a mandate, especially at a time that its super contagious and currently affecting so many?

          The supreme court already ruled on the legality of vaccine mandates in 1905 with smallpox fwiw
          This is my favorite part, people are ignorant of all of this and shocked when it was recently upheld, for what was not the second time, this is a long and baseline practice in the US held up by supreme court, because of course.

          You cannot ask to have society be obligated to you for education, healthcare, etc....without also being obligated to society in ways as well.

          Go live in a 'free' no laws, no gov country then, have at it. No one wants to, because those places are terrible.

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          • Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post

            perhaps i mis speak - but some here seem to support that people should not have the right to choose

            in other words, are vaccine mandates generally supported, or not ?
            And everyone else has the right to choose not to have their bodies infected or their lives compromised by the unvaxxed.

            Theres just no place where the my body take, which is so superficially vapid and dumb, doesnt end at someone elses body. If you live in a society you have these tradeoffs. Its not some simple stupid model.

            There is no smart logical retort that fixes this. My body my choice, fine, choices have consequences like reduced civil liberties. That is the tradeoff. Dont like it, too bad.

            And yes variants come from unbridled spread in the unvaxxed populations.

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            • Originally posted by JWeb View Post

              I am pretty sure that initially the viral load is the same for unvax/vax for a breakthrough infection. There is a study with this info, but I don't have it. But the vax group viral load drops faster and thus gets less contagious sooner than unvax. And, yes, this excludes the fact that the vax group is less likely to get COVID in the first place.
              Yes, this is a horrific argument start to finish.

              Not to mention the incidence of breakthrough infections would decrease exponentially with more vaccinations.

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              • Originally posted by Rando View Post
                I have a couple patients who had such a severe reaction to their first vaccine they refuse to get the second. Has anybody heard about how people are tolerating the boosters?
                Explain “severe”.

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                • Originally posted by Hatton View Post

                  I had seen that Israeli data before I got a booster. It contributed to my decision process.
                  Y
                  https://finance.yahoo.com/news/scien...134723561.html

                  Then CHOP comes out with something like this. Booster vs additional dose is way over my head. I am not so sure the "science" is steering the ship. There seems to be a legistimate debate. Not sure the answer is more theoretical at this point. I wish they had a test to actually tell what degree of strength an individual has.
                  "Whoa! You are at 85%".

                  Wife is concerned about a booster (actually has said NO).
                  "I got the moderna booster after 2 pfizers. I felt really bad for a day. No serious side effect. Just nausea, extreme fatigue, chills. Injection wheal less than second pfizer."
                  The problem is "no serious side effect" is an emotional judgement. Did not need medical attention. She reacts to anesthesia longer than most. I am going to need some agreement to get her to get a third shot. My guess is once the hospitals start a booster process and the daughter gets a third, she will fall in line.
                  THAT seems to be a ways off and the wife is not in the same age risk group. My crystal ball is still foggy. The "experts" seem to still figuring things out with divided theories.


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                  • Originally posted by StateOfMyHead View Post

                    Explain “severe”.
                    Fever, myalgias, headache, vomiting, etc in bed for three days. Both Moderna vaccine.

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                    • Originally posted by Hatton View Post

                      I got the moderna booster after 2 pfizers. I felt really bad for a day. No serious side effect. Just nausea, extreme fatigue, chills. Injection wheal less than second pfizer.
                      Thanks, Hatton. I'm probably going to get it, just have to plan around work.

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                      • Typical email at the start of the week from multiple hospitals in my area:

                        ”There is a critical need for ventilators and staff. At present we have over 100 inpatients with 24 or more ED holds at the hospital, 67+ patients COVID +.”

                        It’s a 100 bed hospital so it’s basically full.

                        This choose-your-own pandemic option is working really well.

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                        • Originally posted by Tim View Post
                          I am not so sure the "science" is steering the ship.
                          Science is a process not an encyclopedia.

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                          • Regarding nurses and other staff leaving places with mandates to go to the "middle of nowhere": I live where most people would consider the middle of nowhere in a state that legally forbids discrimination based on vaccine status / employer mandates and we still have staffing issues.

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                            • Originally posted by zlandar View Post
                              Typical email at the start of the week from multiple hospitals in my area:

                              ”There is a critical need for ventilators and staff. At present we have over 100 inpatients with 24 or more ED holds at the hospital, 67+ patients COVID +.”

                              It’s a 100 bed hospital so it’s basically full.

                              This choose-your-own pandemic option is working really well.
                              Kudo to that hospital for being able to fully staff. From the hospitals in my area, that's unheard of.

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                              • Originally posted by Zaphod View Post

                                And everyone else has the right to choose not to have their bodies infected or their lives compromised by the unvaxxed.

                                Theres just no place where the my body take, which is so superficially vapid and dumb, doesnt end at someone elses body. If you live in a society you have these tradeoffs. Its not some simple stupid model.

                                There is no smart logical retort that fixes this. My body my choice, fine, choices have consequences like reduced civil liberties. That is the tradeoff. Dont like it, too bad.

                                And yes variants come from unbridled spread in the unvaxxed populations.
                                Tell that to the people who are pro-choice in regards to abortion. Such an odd dichotomy, seem like the vaccine argument has flip-flopped the two groups.

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