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  • Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post

    are you serious?
    That they would have already been denied if they didnt follow the previous vaccine mandates?

    public school for NYS vaccine mandates for instance: https://www.health.ny.gov/prevention...hool_vaccines/

    So what makes covid vaccine so special to not require a mandate, especially at a time that its super contagious and currently affecting so many?

    The supreme court already ruled on the legality of vaccine mandates in 1905 with smallpox fwiw

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    • I’ve enjoyed my consistently horrendous call the last month as the proud civil libertarians pack the ER and ICU with covid.

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      • Originally posted by FIREshrink View Post

        Outside of schools and health care workers who provide direct service, where else have vaccines been mandated for societal participation?
        Outside of schools which are what % of the population?

        We've done it before for some of those diseases we've no memory of.

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        • Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post

          are you serious?
          you make me thinking im living in bizarro world. i actually get vaccines so i have no clue what its like to not get them. but am i wrong or in some states you can't really go to public school unless you get certain vaccines? if so, why would public college be any different? we're not asking much here. I'd rather go to school with people who have vaccines

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          • Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post
            is your position that there are no civil liberties being restricted based on vaccine status?

            as a brief example there are many public universities who are mandating vaccines for enrollment

            Originally posted by Turf Doc View Post

            is it really an infringement of civil liberties to deny unvaccinated people from going to public colleges?
            jacoavlu Deflecting yet again.

            I'll answer yours:

            To deny ANY public college? yes.
            To deny access on campus, in-person learning public college during a health pandemic? No. Not an infringement.

            There are limits to personal individual civil liberties. Many are curtailed when other individual civil liberties are involved. There's a difference.

            jacoavlu - Explain YOUR contention: civil liberties invaded in setting of public, but not in private institutions -- how there's a grey area in one, but not another:

            Vaccine mandate in public hospital -- that's an invasion per your contention -- please explain.
            Last edited by StarTrekDoc; 08-29-2021, 06:43 PM.

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            • Originally posted by StarTrekDoc View Post
              Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post
              is your position that there are no civil liberties being restricted based on vaccine status?

              as a brief example there are many public universities who are mandating vaccines for enrollment



              Deflecting yet again.

              I'll answer yours:

              To deny ANY public college? yes.
              To deny access on campus, in-person learning public college during a health pandemic? No. Not an infringement.

              There are limits to personal individual civil liberties. Many are curtailed when other individual civil liberties are involved. There's a difference.

              Explain YOUR contention: civil liberties invaded in setting of public, but not in private institutions -- how there's a grey area in one, but not another:

              Vaccine mandate in public hospital -- that's an invasion per your contention -- please explain.
              are you saying i'm deflecting or jacoavlu is deflecting? personally i think denying on campus in-person learning is reasonable. whatever the heck we've already decided is reasonable with a bunch of other vaccines for preschoolers is what i'd suggest. doesnt seem too crazy...

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              • Originally posted by billy View Post

                That they would have already been denied if they didnt follow the previous vaccine mandates?

                public school for NYS vaccine mandates for instance: https://www.health.ny.gov/prevention...hool_vaccines/

                So what makes covid vaccine so special to not require a mandate, especially at a time that its super contagious and currently affecting so many?

                The supreme court already ruled on the legality of vaccine mandates in 1905 with smallpox fwiw
                Yes, and that's why when Pfizer was fully approved, the last legal theoretical barrier fell and many entities started rolling out mandates.

                I am interested to see how many of these civil rights advocates turn out to be paper tigers when it comes down to being fired and unable to collect unemployment.

                There will absolutely be folk who fall in their swords for their cause and I applaud them for their conviction. Others.....get in the boat already and stop making a mess of things so people can do their jobs.

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                • Originally posted by Lithium View Post
                  I do think it is an open question on whether vaccine mandates in the health care setting will really have a net positive effect in lives saved. If it just leads a lot of health care workers to quit or change jobs, or if the workers who are ultimately nudged to get the vaccine mostly interact with low-risk people, who knows?

                  It would be a shame if extreme situations like a heart transplant couldn’t go forward, or they had to shut the rural psych ward down because of decisions from corporate headquarters. So I think jacoavlu has a point there.

                  I think it would be a shame if all systems don't mandate all health care workers are vaccinated unless they have a medical exception. There is already talk of nurses who don't want to be vaccinated being recruited to the middle of nowhere. If they decide to go that route I suspect they will reap what they sow.

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                  • peace all

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                    • Originally posted by StateOfMyHead View Post


                      I think it would be a shame if all systems don't mandate all health care workers are vaccinated unless they have a medical exception. There is already talk of nurses who don't want to be vaccinated being recruited to the middle of nowhere. If they decide to go that route I suspect they will reap what they sow.
                      I agree. If vaccine mandates are universal, it seems pretty likely they will be effective. But if they are inconsistently imposed, especially at the local level, well I think the systems that impose them may just take a bullet in the face. May be a net negative for the patients also.

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                      • This argument is pointless. Physicians should favor vaccines and yes mandates. Mandates would not be necessary if people went forward and got vaccinated. I do not like paying taxes or doing what my HOA says but I do these because that is part of civil society. It is sad that this issue got so warped that it has to be mandated. It was more understandable to me when the vaccine was in short supply and people were figuring out ways to get it. I just cannot comprehend anyone in healthcare not wanting to get vaccinated. I am not worried about a loss of my civil liberties over this vaccine.
                        Last edited by Hatton; 08-29-2021, 07:41 PM.

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                        • Originally posted by Hatton View Post
                          This argument is pointless. Physicians should favor vaccines and yes mandates. Mandates would not be necessary if people went forward and got vaccinated. I do not like paying taxes or doing what my HOA says but I do these because that is part of civil society. It is sad that this issue got so warped that it has to be mandated. It was more understandable to me when the vaccine was in short supply and people were figuring out ways to get it. I just cannot comprehend anyone in healthcare not wanting to get vaccinated. I am not worried about a loss of my civil liberties over this vaccine.
                          It would be nice if vaccines were not used for other political/social issues and agendas. But Covid impacts politics and society.

                          What concerns me is that vaccines length of effectiveness is now yielding data.
                          ”Preliminary data published by the Israeli governmentin July showed the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was just 16% effective against symptomatic infection for people who had received two doses in January. For people who had been fully vaccinated by April, the vaccine was 79% effective against symptomatic infection, suggesting that immunity gained through immunization depletes over time.

                          However, the analysis did conclude that having the vaccine provided strong protection against severe illness and hospitalization caused by Covid-19.“
                          16% at 7-8 months is concerning. Glad you got your booster.



                          This has me strongly considering boosters.
                          Anecdotally, starting to hear of breakthrough cases as well. Most resulted from a gathering of some type. Might order a new Vogmask or pick up some new ones. Not waiting for CDC or mandates. For a booster or mask. Self preservation of close family is more important.

                          Statistic fatigue has set into the general population (myself included).

                          “The CDC recommends giving an additional dose of a Covid-19 vaccine from Pfizer Inc. and its partner BioNTech SE in moderately or severely immunocompromised people who are 12 years and older, or the vaccine from Moderna Inc. in the immunocompromised 18 years and older.”

                          16% seems to imply that ALL might need a booster I wish CDC would clarify. Or are they limiting it due to supply/demand? If so, go back to allocations for boosters. Might jump to the front of the line if possible.
                          CDC says 8 months. Israel says 5 months.
                          Is the difference “medical science” or again supply/demand?


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                          • Originally posted by Tim View Post

                            It would be nice if vaccines were not used for other political/social issues and agendas. But Covid impacts politics and society.

                            What concerns me is that vaccines length of effectiveness is now yielding data.
                            ”Preliminary data published by the Israeli governmentin July showed the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was just 16% effective against symptomatic infection for people who had received two doses in January. For people who had been fully vaccinated by April, the vaccine was 79% effective against symptomatic infection, suggesting that immunity gained through immunization depletes over time.

                            However, the analysis did conclude that having the vaccine provided strong protection against severe illness and hospitalization caused by Covid-19.“
                            16% at 7-8 months is concerning. Glad you got your booster.



                            This has me strongly considering boosters.
                            Anecdotally, starting to hear of breakthrough cases as well. Most resulted from a gathering of some type. Might order a new Vogmask or pick up some new ones. Not waiting for CDC or mandates. For a booster or mask. Self preservation of close family is more important.

                            Statistic fatigue has set into the general population (myself included).

                            “The CDC recommends giving an additional dose of a Covid-19 vaccine from Pfizer Inc. and its partner BioNTech SE in moderately or severely immunocompromised people who are 12 years and older, or the vaccine from Moderna Inc. in the immunocompromised 18 years and older.”

                            16% seems to imply that ALL might need a booster I wish CDC would clarify. Or are they limiting it due to supply/demand? If so, go back to allocations for boosters. Might jump to the front of the line if possible.
                            CDC says 8 months. Israel says 5 months.
                            Is the difference “medical science” or again supply/demand?

                            I had seen that Israeli data before I got a booster. It contributed to my decision process.

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                            • Originally posted by FIREshrink View Post
                              The last three responses all make a good argument for individuals to choose to be vaccinated. My question is about mandates, which can only exist to protect others. If vaccinated and unvaccinated have the same viral loads they may be equally capable of shedding and spreading. In that case, I'm not protecting anyone else by getting vaccinated, only myself, and I don't see how a free society could mandate individuals take medicine which only protects themselves.
                              I am pretty sure that initially the viral load is the same for unvax/vax for a breakthrough infection. But the vax group viral load drops faster and thus gets less contagious sooner than unvax. There is a study with this info, but I don't have it. And, yes, this excludes the fact that the vax group is less likely to get COVID in the first place.
                              Last edited by JWeb; 08-30-2021, 11:29 AM.

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                              • I have a couple patients who had such a severe reaction to their first vaccine they refuse to get the second. Has anybody heard about how people are tolerating the boosters?

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