Medical Discussion of Coronavirus

[FIREshrink]

Have hospitals ever been overloaded by obese people or rock climbers or smokers like they were from covid patients?

My hospital is always overloaded with obese people... ,😜

[jacoavlu]

This is different from said hospitals restricting employees with mandates. You're talking about broad overreach of government. I would say yes, that is too far, too much. Plenty of examples all over the political spectrum with I agree such overreach on the determinations of the school boards, companies, and entities on what can/cannot be done. - Gov should have declared public health emergency with specific guidance to public health agencies at the county level to coordinate local rules. The Govenors throughout ALL stepped in it.

That's VERY different from the vaccine mandates coming from local entities at the local level and MANY of the individual civil liberties being claim to be invaded.

Here's a specific example to answer: If a local public hospital comes out with a vaccine mandate for its employees with only a medical or religious exemption, is that okay?

we are in gray area again

is your local hospital a private enterprise for profit of shareholders

or like my local hospital not for profit and supported by taxpayer subsidies

[jacoavlu]

Outside of schools and health care workers who provide direct service, where else have vaccines been mandated for societal participation?

again see NYC or canada or australia

[jacoavlu]

Have hospitals ever been overloaded by obese people or rock climbers or smokers like they were from covid patients?

the hospital system i am most closely affiliated with - i am not an employee - now will be in the position of firing nurses who choose not to get vaccinated bc of mandate from out of state corp leadership

local leadership will not provide any resistance

we are already understaffed and our local system will be soon overwhelmed

a close friend of mine, their elderly parent is currently in our ICU about to die from covid 19 while fully immunized

[StarTrekDoc]

the hospital system i am most closely affiliated with - i am not an employee - now will be in the position of firing nurses who choose not to get vaccinated bc of mandate from out of state corp leadership

local leadership will not provide any resistance

we are already understaffed and our local system will be soon overwhelmed

a close friend of mine, their elderly parent is currently in our ICU about to die from covid 19 while fully immunized

Sorry to hear about the sick elderly parent.

It would be nice if the system wasn't overwhelmed in the first place with good policy, stewardship, and common good principles reinforced and supported. That was the whole intent and message lost. 90% of admissions is unvaccinated and largely avoidable --- way more than enough to provide services to those who did their own part to protect themselves and others.

The blame of overwhelmed systems isn't on policy of the admin here. So you think the local admin wouldn't choose the same as the out-of-state admin? More and more will adopt a vaccine mandate, if not solely as a financial protection as much as a risk management one.

[Anne]

For me, that's not good enough for a mandate. You could make the same argument for not smoking and not being obese and not rock climbing but none of those are enforceable mandates to work as a physician, much less, say, a cook in a hospital.

Regardless, you had said getting a vaccine only benefits the person vaccinated. I was pointing out that that’s not true, especially on a societal level.

I don’t agree with the statement that mandates can only exist to protect others. In many states it is mandatory to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle. That is to protect the motorcyclist. I guess you could also argue it’s to protect others from the effects of seeing the rider’s brains smeared across the road. Everything has primary, secondary, tertiary, etc effects.

[StarTrekDoc]

Originally posted by StarTrekDoc View Post
This is different from said hospitals restricting employees with mandates. You're talking about broad overreach of government. I would say yes, that is too far, too much. Plenty of examples all over the political spectrum with I agree such overreach on the determinations of the school boards, companies, and entities on what can/cannot be done. - Gov should have declared public health emergency with specific guidance to public health agencies at the county level to coordinate local rules. The Govenors throughout ALL stepped in it.

That's VERY different from the vaccine mandates coming from local entities at the local level and MANY of the individual civil liberties being claim to be invaded.

Here's a specific example to answer: If a local public hospital comes out with a vaccine mandate for its employees with only a medical or religious exemption, is that okay?

we are in gray area again

is your local hospital a private enterprise for profit of shareholders

or like my local hospital not for profit and supported by taxpayer subsidies

Stop deflecting. Cite a specific invasion of civil liberty that occurs, and is apparently variable depending on the entity imposing that said invasion

If a local public hospital comes out with a vaccine mandate for its employees with only a medical or religious exemption, is that okay? While a privately owned hospital, it's okay? How did that specific civil liberty change to be invaded?

[Turf Doc]

the hospital system i am most closely affiliated with - i am not an employee - now will be in the position of firing nurses who choose not to get vaccinated bc of mandate from out of state corp leadership

local leadership will not provide any resistance

we are already understaffed and our local system will be soon overwhelmed

a close friend of mine, their elderly parent is currently in our ICU about to die from covid 19 while fully immunized

if a vaccine mandate means firing nurses who won't get it and now they're understaffed and that's dangerous to patients, that's an interesting question and i wonder how common it is. in the free market of vaccine mandate vs i dont want to work for you the latter may win in that case

sorry to hear about your friend but it's an anecdote, not sure what the point is. we know breakthrough infections can happen and can still kill. but surely people's elderly parents are better off with the vaccines than not

[FIREshrink]

again see NYC or canada or australia

I meant pre covid

[Zaphod]

so you’ve given up and become a pure statist ?

i will support vaccination among those at risk as much as I am able

and at the same time in meetings w C suite advocate for a middle approach where personal choice is a consideration

As usual, approach is inconsistent and changed to fit whatever you're trying to do at the time.

There is zero logic or reason that is compatible showing a framework of making reasoned decisions, just warped libertarian bitmaxi brain disease.

Schools, aka, everyone mandate. Yes, like everything else.

If people want to refuse then they can stay out of polite society, issue is they want to be problems and participate and get all the benefits with none of the responsibilities.

Well I'd rather not pay taxes or my debts, and frankly that hurts a lot less people than not getting a vax.

Yet most of the same personalities would call that a strong sense of doing what's right and "paying what you owe".

As a member benefiting from society, this is what you owe.

[jacoavlu]

Originally posted by StarTrekDoc View Post
This is different from said hospitals restricting employees with mandates. You're talking about broad overreach of government. I would say yes, that is too far, too much. Plenty of examples all over the political spectrum with I agree such overreach on the determinations of the school boards, companies, and entities on what can/cannot be done. - Gov should have declared public health emergency with specific guidance to public health agencies at the county level to coordinate local rules. The Govenors throughout ALL stepped in it.

That's VERY different from the vaccine mandates coming from local entities at the local level and MANY of the individual civil liberties being claim to be invaded.

Here's a specific example to answer: If a local public hospital comes out with a vaccine mandate for its employees with only a medical or religious exemption, is that okay?


Stop deflecting. Cite a specific invasion of civil liberty that occurs, and is apparently variable depending on the entity imposing that said invasion

If a local public hospital comes out with a vaccine mandate for its employees with only a medical or religious exemption, is that okay? While a privately owned hospital, it's okay? How did that specific civil liberty change to be invaded?

is your position that there are no civil liberties being restricted based on vaccine status?

as a brief example there are many public universities who are mandating vaccines for enrollment

[Lithium]

I do think it is an open question on whether vaccine mandates in the health care setting will really have a net positive effect in lives saved. If it just leads a lot of health care workers to quit or change jobs, or if the workers who are ultimately nudged to get the vaccine mostly interact with low-risk people, who knows?

It would be a shame if extreme situations like a heart transplant couldn’t go forward, or they had to shut the rural psych ward down because of decisions from corporate headquarters. So I think jacoavlu has a point there.

[jacoavlu]

As usual, approach is inconsistent and changed to fit whatever you're trying to do at the time.

There is zero logic or reason that is compatible showing a framework of making reasoned decisions, just warped libertarian bitmaxi brain disease.

Schools, aka, everyone mandate. Yes, like everything else.

If people want to refuse then they can stay out of polite society, issue is they want to be problems and participate and get all the benefits with none of the responsibilities.

Well I'd rather not pay taxes or my debts, and frankly that hurts a lot less people than not getting a vax.

Yet most of the same personalities would call that a strong sense of doing what's right and "paying what you owe".

As a member benefiting from society, this is what you owe.

pro vaccine. anti mandate.

where is the inconsistency ?

[Turf Doc]

is your position that there are no civil liberties being restricted based on vaccine status?

as a brief example there are many public universities who are mandating vaccines for enrollment

is it really an infringement of civil liberties to deny unvaccinated people from going to public colleges?

[jacoavlu]

is it really an infringement of civil liberties to deny unvaccinated people from going to public colleges?

are you serious?