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  • Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post

    i consider HIV infection different than covid infection

    i freely admit there are gray areas

    how about you?
    That's fine. My point, once again, is that you don't "fundamentally" disagree with that principle as you stated earlier:

    but “you don’t have the right to infect others” is a fundamental step further that i don’t agree with.
    Even you would apply it sometimes. You seem to be taking a rights based approach to this when that isn't really the issue. Others can have the same general view of individual freedoms as you do, but they simply have different views on COVID, the vaccine, etc.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Anne View Post

      You are protecting others by getting vaccinated by making a choice that markedly increases your chance of not taking up a hospital bed, thus saving that resource for someone else who needs it.
      a perfectly reasonable argument

      Comment


      • Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post
        if you don’t want to admit the obv difference between private enterprise and gov supported entities then our conversation is pointless
        I do believe there are different bars and responsibilities which a private institution vs government support -- that's not the point

        How is one's civil liberties invaded by the latter while not by the former on the same action?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by AR View Post

          That's fine. My point, once again, is that you don't "fundamentally" disagree with that principle as you stated earlier:



          Even you would apply it sometimes. You seem to be taking a rights based approach to this when that isn't really the issue. Others can have the same general view of individual freedoms as you do, but they simply have different views on COVID, the vaccine, etc.
          agree

          my entrance to the conversation began w regards to covid vaccine mandates.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post

            so you’ve given up and become a pure statist ?

            i will support vaccination among those at risk as much as I am able

            and at the same time in meetings w C suite advocate for a middle approach where personal choice is a consideration
            It’s not that I support the state imposing choices on others per se, but if the state requires ME to pay for others poor choices, then shouldn’t the state also do something to punish those poor choices made by others?

            If people want to make bad choices that’s fine, just don’t make me liable for them.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post

              agree

              my entrance to the conversation began w regards to covid vaccine mandates.
              I wasn't really interested in all the rest of that. Just that one sentence.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by StarTrekDoc View Post
                I do believe there are different bars and responsibilities which a private institution vs government support -- that's not the point

                How is one's civil liberties invaded by the latter while not by the former on the same action?
                is this a serious question?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Lithium View Post

                  It’s not that I support the state imposing choices on others per se, but if the state requires ME to pay for others poor choices, then shouldn’t the state also do something to punish those poor choices made by others?

                  If people want to make bad choices that’s fine, just don’t make me liable for them.
                  so it was covid that changed your position so much?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by AR View Post

                    I wasn't really interested in all the rest of that. Just that one sentence.
                    ok

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by StarTrekDoc View Post
                      I do believe there are different bars and responsibilities which a private institution vs government support -- that's not the point

                      How is one's civil liberties invaded by the latter while not by the former on the same action?

                      Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post
                      is this a serious question?
                      Yes. Please support your contention.

                      As a person who has significant Libertarian leanings, I do realize when there is a line where individual rights cede to the public right. I'd like to see where your contentions are that individual rights are invaded in one setting vs the same situation is not in another.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by StarTrekDoc View Post
                        Originally posted by StarTrekDoc View Post
                        I do believe there are different bars and responsibilities which a private institution vs government support -- that's not the point

                        How is one's civil liberties invaded by the latter while not by the former on the same action?


                        Yes. Please support your contention.

                        As a person who has significant Libertarian leanings, I do realize when there is a line where individual rights cede to the public right. I'd like to see where your contentions are that individual rights are invaded in one setting vs the same situation is not in another.
                        i think the gov and public entities have ability to restrict movement and freedom in ways private entities do not

                        college is a pretty easy example

                        or NYC mandates such as no visit to health club without vaccine

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post

                          so it was covid that changed your position so much?
                          No

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post

                            i think the gov and public entities have ability to restrict movement and freedom in ways private entities do not

                            college is a pretty easy example

                            or NYC mandates such as no visit to health club without vaccine
                            This is different from said hospitals restricting employees with mandates. You're talking about broad overreach of government. I would say yes, that is too far, too much. Plenty of examples all over the political spectrum with I agree such overreach on the determinations of the school boards, companies, and entities on what can/cannot be done. - Gov should have declared public health emergency with specific guidance to public health agencies at the county level to coordinate local rules. The Govenors throughout ALL stepped in it.

                            That's VERY different from the vaccine mandates coming from local entities at the local level and MANY of the individual civil liberties being claim to be invaded.

                            Here's a specific example to answer: If a local public hospital comes out with a vaccine mandate for its employees with only a medical or religious exemption, is that okay?
                            Last edited by StarTrekDoc; 08-29-2021, 03:14 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Anne View Post

                              You are protecting others by getting vaccinated by making a choice that markedly increases your chance of not taking up a hospital bed, thus saving that resource for someone else who needs it.
                              For me, that's not good enough for a mandate. You could make the same argument for not smoking and not being obese and not rock climbing but none of those are enforceable mandates to work as a physician, much less, say, a cook in a hospital.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by StarTrekDoc View Post

                                This is different from said hospitals restricting employees with mandates. You're talking about broad overreach of government. I would say yes, that is too far, too much. Plenty of examples all over the political spectrum with I agree such overreach on the determinations of the school boards, companies, and entities on what can/cannot be done.

                                That's VERY different from the vaccine mandates coming from local entities at the local level and MANY of the individual civil liberties being claim to be invaded.

                                Here's a specific example to answer: If a local public hospital comes out with a vaccine mandate for its employees with only a medical or religious exemption, is that okay?
                                My local public hospital has a mandate, no religious exemptions.

                                Comment

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