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  • jacoavlu I appreciate you providing some logical coherence in distinguishing between government and private entities. I just think the state is way too enmeshed in our private lives and it’s past the point of no return. As @G eloquently pointed out, as long as I’m on the hook as a taxpayer for obese alcoholics, people who eat McDonald’s five times a week, people who spread HIV, people who have 8 kids on food stamps and Medicaid, etc, I feel entitled to pass judgment and dictate to others what choices they make because the IRS constrains my individual freedom too. It’s a two way street.

    That is just the world we live in, for better or worse. We’re not going back to the world of the Federalist papers.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Turf Doc View Post

      if i was czar or something id have to think about it a lot more, but as a semi-layperson i'd say i support treating covid-vaccine like we treat whatever other most important vaccines
      great. that’s a non answer

      i thought your position was that unvaccinated are responsible for variants?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post

        i do not disagree w a private enterprise having a right to choose what they require of their employees

        it becomes different when it comes to governments and universities

        a not for profit hospital system that receives lots of gov support - a very gray area
        civ·il lib·er·ty
        /ˈsivil ˈlibərdē/
        Learn to pronounce
        noun
        1. the state of being subject only to laws established for the good of the community, especially with regard to freedom of action and speech.

        So why is it an invasion of one's civil liberty okay in private but no government supported? isn't invasion of one's right simply that?

        What again what is being invaded if a public school administration or public hospital administration mandates vaccines for its employees, or school district changes it's dress code to require masking?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post

          knowingly spreading of HIV not ok in my opinion

          HIV is a different illness for a young adult vs covid.
          Whoa, there buddy.

          I think you're going to need to show your work here. You said

          but “you don’t have the right to infect others” is a fundamental step further that i don’t agree with.
          It sounds to me like you are perfectly happy to invoke "you don't have the right to infect others" when it suits you.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Lithium View Post
            jacoavlu I appreciate you providing some logical coherence in distinguishing between government and private entities. I just think the state is way too enmeshed in our private lives and it’s past the point of no return. As @G eloquently pointed out, as long as I’m on the hook as a taxpayer for obese alcoholics, people who eat McDonald’s five times a week, people who spread HIV, people who have 8 kids on food stamps and Medicaid, etc, I feel entitled to pass judgment and dictate to others what choices they make because the IRS constrains my individual freedom too. It’s a two way street.

            That is just the world we live in, for better or worse.
            so you’ve given up and become a pure statist ?

            i will support vaccination among those at risk as much as I am able

            and at the same time in meetings w C suite advocate for a middle approach where personal choice is a consideration

            Comment


            • Originally posted by AR View Post

              Whoa, there buddy.

              I think you're going to need to show your work here. You said



              It sounds to me like you are perfectly happy to invoke "you don't have the right to infect others" when it suits you.
              you are free to avoid objecting to my actual argument, if you so choose

              Comment


              • Originally posted by StarTrekDoc View Post

                civ·il lib·er·ty
                /ˈsivil ˈlibərdē/
                Learn to pronounce
                noun
                1. the state of being subject only to laws established for the good of the community, especially with regard to freedom of action and speech.

                So why is it an invasion of one's civil liberty okay in private but no government supported? isn't invasion of one's right simply that?

                What again what is being invaded if a public school administration or public hospital administration mandates vaccines for its employees, or school district changes it's dress code to require masking?

                if you don’t want to admit the obv difference between private enterprise and gov supported entities then our conversation is pointless

                Comment


                • Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post

                  great. that’s a non answer

                  i thought your position was that unvaccinated are responsible for variants?
                  That basically is my position because once you're vaccinated you're so unlikely to get covid, and you already did your part and got the vaccine. Those who are unvaccinated are way more likely to get it and spread it and have refused to do the small thing we as a society have asked. i do believe that if we had 100% vaccination rates we'd be much less likely to get variants. do you disagree?

                  don't see how it's a non-answer, I'm saying i believe it should be treated like polio vaccine, etc. i'm not czar and my opinions don't really matter so i have not considered how i would change things if i was a dictator. im not that knowledgeable on it

                  Comment


                  • NYC you can still go to any outdoor venue- it is exactly like the smoking ban, and I hear the same arguments heard 20 years ago when NYC implemented it for restaurants bars and movie theaters. Children under 12 are exempt. City employees need vaccinations or weekly tests. Teachers need the same since they interact with multiple people a day and can super spread. Its not that difficult a concept, and smokers/businesses used the same arguments yet survived and adapted to new times. Smokers cant smoke on the trains, or in any government building, or restaurants, or a theater. I'd argue spreading COVID is worse than 1 second hand smoke exposure.

                    And again, public schools have always had vaccine mandates (or at least for the last 40 years).

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Turf Doc View Post

                      That basically is my position because once you're vaccinated you're so unlikely to get covid, and you already did your part and got the vaccine. Those who are unvaccinated are way more likely to get it and spread it and have refused to do the small thing we as a society have asked. i do believe that if we had 100% vaccination rates we'd be much less likely to get variants. do you disagree?
                      100% ? adults, kids, everyone ?

                      i disagree with your position

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post

                        you are free to avoid objecting to my actual argument, if you so choose
                        I'm not ignoring anything, I literally quoted you verbatim. To recap, you said:

                        but “you don’t have the right to infect others” is a fundamental step further that i don’t agree with.
                        However, in the case of HIV infection you very clearly believe that "you don't have the right to infect others" applies.

                        Obviously you believe for some diseases it is fine to invoke that argument and for other diseases it isn't. But if it applies at least sometimes, then you don't actually have a problem with that general principle.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post

                          100% ? adults, kids, everyone ?

                          i disagree with your position
                          if you disagree with my position that 100% vaccination (yes adults kids everyone) means less likely to get variants i don't know what to tell you. end of conversation there from me. would love if any ID docs could chime in instead though

                          if you disagree with "forced" vaccination of everyone... ok, we know

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by AR View Post

                            I'm not ignoring anything, I literally quoted you verbatim. To recap, you said:



                            However, in the case of HIV infection you very clearly believe that "you don't have the right to infect others" applies.

                            Obviously you believe for some diseases it is fine to invoke that argument and for other diseases it isn't. But if it applies at least sometimes, then you don't actually have a problem with that general principle.
                            i consider HIV infection different than covid infection

                            i freely admit there are gray areas

                            how about you?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Turf Doc View Post

                              if you disagree with my position that 100% vaccination (yes adults kids everyone) means less likely to get variants i don't know what to tell you. end of conversation there from me. would love if any ID docs could chime in instead though

                              if you disagree with "forced" vaccination of everyone... ok, we know
                              i’m going to guess you don’t have children

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by FIREshrink View Post
                                The last three responses all make a good argument for individuals to choose to be vaccinated. My question is about mandates, which can only exist to protect others. If vaccinated and unvaccinated have the same viral loads they may be equally capable of shedding and spreading. In that case, I'm not protecting anyone else by getting vaccinated, only myself, and I don't see how a free society could mandate individuals take medicine which only protects themselves.
                                You are protecting others by getting vaccinated by making a choice that markedly increases your chance of not taking up a hospital bed, thus saving that resource for someone else who needs it.

                                Comment

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