Medical Discussion of Coronavirus

[StarTrekDoc]

i do not disagree w a private enterprise having a right to choose what they require of their employees

it becomes different when it comes to governments and universities

a not for profit hospital system that receives lots of gov support - a very gray area

civ·il lib·er·ty
/ˈsivil ˈlibərdē/
Learn to pronounce
noun

1. the state of being subject only to laws established for the good of the community, especially with regard to freedom of action and speech.

So why is it an invasion of one's civil liberty okay in private but no government supported? isn't invasion of one's right simply that?

What again what is being invaded if a public school administration or public hospital administration mandates vaccines for its employees, or school district changes it's dress code to require masking?

[AR]

knowingly spreading of HIV not ok in my opinion

HIV is a different illness for a young adult vs covid.

Whoa, there buddy.

I think you're going to need to show your work here. You said

but “you don’t have the right to infect others” is a fundamental step further that i don’t agree with.

It sounds to me like you are perfectly happy to invoke "you don't have the right to infect others" when it suits you.

[jacoavlu]

jacoavlu I appreciate you providing some logical coherence in distinguishing between government and private entities. I just think the state is way too enmeshed in our private lives and it’s past the point of no return. As @G eloquently pointed out, as long as I’m on the hook as a taxpayer for obese alcoholics, people who eat McDonald’s five times a week, people who spread HIV, people who have 8 kids on food stamps and Medicaid, etc, I feel entitled to pass judgment and dictate to others what choices they make because the IRS constrains my individual freedom too. It’s a two way street.

That is just the world we live in, for better or worse.

so you’ve given up and become a pure statist ?

i will support vaccination among those at risk as much as I am able

and at the same time in meetings w C suite advocate for a middle approach where personal choice is a consideration

[jacoavlu]

Whoa, there buddy.

I think you're going to need to show your work here. You said



It sounds to me like you are perfectly happy to invoke "you don't have the right to infect others" when it suits you.

you are free to avoid objecting to my actual argument, if you so choose

[jacoavlu]

civ·il lib·er·ty
/ˈsivil ˈlibərdē/
Learn to pronounce
noun

1. the state of being subject only to laws established for the good of the community, especially with regard to freedom of action and speech.

So why is it an invasion of one's civil liberty okay in private but no government supported? isn't invasion of one's right simply that?

What again what is being invaded if a public school administration or public hospital administration mandates vaccines for its employees, or school district changes it's dress code to require masking?

if you don’t want to admit the obv difference between private enterprise and gov supported entities then our conversation is pointless

[Turf Doc]

great. that’s a non answer

i thought your position was that unvaccinated are responsible for variants?

That basically is my position because once you're vaccinated you're so unlikely to get covid, and you already did your part and got the vaccine. Those who are unvaccinated are way more likely to get it and spread it and have refused to do the small thing we as a society have asked. i do believe that if we had 100% vaccination rates we'd be much less likely to get variants. do you disagree?

don't see how it's a non-answer, I'm saying i believe it should be treated like polio vaccine, etc. i'm not czar and my opinions don't really matter so i have not considered how i would change things if i was a dictator. im not that knowledgeable on it

[billy]

NYC you can still go to any outdoor venue- it is exactly like the smoking ban, and I hear the same arguments heard 20 years ago when NYC implemented it for restaurants bars and movie theaters. Children under 12 are exempt. City employees need vaccinations or weekly tests. Teachers need the same since they interact with multiple people a day and can super spread. Its not that difficult a concept, and smokers/businesses used the same arguments yet survived and adapted to new times. Smokers cant smoke on the trains, or in any government building, or restaurants, or a theater. I'd argue spreading COVID is worse than 1 second hand smoke exposure.

And again, public schools have always had vaccine mandates (or at least for the last 40 years).

[jacoavlu]

That basically is my position because once you're vaccinated you're so unlikely to get covid, and you already did your part and got the vaccine. Those who are unvaccinated are way more likely to get it and spread it and have refused to do the small thing we as a society have asked. i do believe that if we had 100% vaccination rates we'd be much less likely to get variants. do you disagree?

100% ? adults, kids, everyone ?

i disagree with your position

[AR]

you are free to avoid objecting to my actual argument, if you so choose

I'm not ignoring anything, I literally quoted you verbatim. To recap, you said:

but “you don’t have the right to infect others” is a fundamental step further that i don’t agree with.

However, in the case of HIV infection you very clearly believe that "you don't have the right to infect others" applies.

Obviously you believe for some diseases it is fine to invoke that argument and for other diseases it isn't. But if it applies at least sometimes, then you don't actually have a problem with that general principle.

[Turf Doc]

100% ? adults, kids, everyone ?

i disagree with your position

if you disagree with my position that 100% vaccination (yes adults kids everyone) means less likely to get variants i don't know what to tell you. end of conversation there from me. would love if any ID docs could chime in instead though

if you disagree with "forced" vaccination of everyone... ok, we know

[jacoavlu]

I'm not ignoring anything, I literally quoted you verbatim. To recap, you said:



However, in the case of HIV infection you very clearly believe that "you don't have the right to infect others" applies.

Obviously you believe for some diseases it is fine to invoke that argument and for other diseases it isn't. But if it applies at least sometimes, then you don't actually have a problem with that general principle.

i consider HIV infection different than covid infection

i freely admit there are gray areas

how about you?

[jacoavlu]

if you disagree with my position that 100% vaccination (yes adults kids everyone) means less likely to get variants i don't know what to tell you. end of conversation there from me. would love if any ID docs could chime in instead though

if you disagree with "forced" vaccination of everyone... ok, we know

i’m going to guess you don’t have children

[Anne]

The last three responses all make a good argument for individuals to choose to be vaccinated. My question is about mandates, which can only exist to protect others. If vaccinated and unvaccinated have the same viral loads they may be equally capable of shedding and spreading. In that case, I'm not protecting anyone else by getting vaccinated, only myself, and I don't see how a free society could mandate individuals take medicine which only protects themselves.

You are protecting others by getting vaccinated by making a choice that markedly increases your chance of not taking up a hospital bed, thus saving that resource for someone else who needs it.

[AR]

i consider HIV infection different than covid infection

i freely admit there are gray areas

how about you?

That's fine. My point, once again, is that you don't "fundamentally" disagree with that principle as you stated earlier:

but “you don’t have the right to infect others” is a fundamental step further that i don’t agree with.

Even you would apply it sometimes. You seem to be taking a rights based approach to this when that isn't really the issue. Others can have the same general view of individual freedoms as you do, but they simply have different views on COVID, the vaccine, etc.

[jacoavlu]

You are protecting others by getting vaccinated by making a choice that markedly increases your chance of not taking up a hospital bed, thus saving that resource for someone else who needs it.

a perfectly reasonable argument