Medical Discussion of Coronavirus

[wideopenspaces]

let’s stop treating drunks and drug addicts too. or MVA victims ejected bc they weren’t wearing seatbelts. or gang bangers that get shot. or type 2 diabetics that end up with renal failure and necrotic toes

shameful statement from a physician

Those people aren't running national campaigns about "personal responsibility" and "personal freedom".

[Hatton]

I just caught up on this thread. It is mind-boggling to me that a physician could oppose vaccination. It is obvious to me that anyone working in any type of health care facility should be vaccinated. This includes food service workers and custodians. This includes home health aides. How could you live with yourself if you infected a chemo patient? I believe in freedom but spreading infection harms others. Sometimes things just have to be mandated like motorcycle helmets and seat belts. I am sorry that Tuskegee happened but we need to move on and recognize that this virus is more deadly than the vaccine. HCW need to be role models to the general public. If we mistrust vaccines how can we expect the public to get them. I favor vaccine mandates.

[Lordosis]

Things have changed dramatically even since WWII. The best comparison is the polio vaccine. They gave it to millions of kids. Some of the vaccines were tainted, and there were kids who became paralyzed and died. Imagine that happening now.

polio seems ten times worse than covid 19, but It’s hard to imagine we could get it eradicated as we did back then. It’s easy to blame social media and widespread mistrust in institutions. But I’m not even sure if you could have gotten everyone to take that vaccine in the 1970s. This country wasn’t the same after Vietnam, Watergate and the growth of just the mainstream media.

America has always been terrible about getting annual flu shots by the way. I agree with your political take. These aren’t really “mandates” if you can opt out of them.

I agree with you that polio is also another good example of something that was done in our past that would be very difficult to do today. I'm not sure what exactly it is that's different but it's probably multifactorial.

Yes flu shot rates are abysmal. I was just bringing it up because a lot of hospitals have been mandating them in recent years. A lot of the policies I see are either you need to get a flu shot or wear a mask all winter which seems quite silly now. But I know at my health system in couple others I've heard about a few are a new hire it was part of your contract to get the flu vaccine or was a fireable offense.

Honestly that seems like a better policy to me then screening out smokers with nicotine testing to work in a hospital. I get the fact that it cost the hospital more money and you're out more often but at least you're not directly harming other people by smoking at home. Other than your family members that is.

[jacoavlu]

Those people aren't running national campaigns about "personal responsibility" and "personal freedom".

but your example unvaccinated person that gets covid and needs treatment is ?

[G]

Ah, I see this thread has taken a turn to philosophy: freedom of personal choice for Americans... until the melena hits the fan at which point society is legally and morally obligated to help the individual American. Dietary indiscretion, unhelmeted motorcycling, credit default swaps, living below sea level in a hurricane zone, and vaccine refusal. All of these things affect each of us in our society. But make no mistake, some affect us more directly than the others.

[billy]

but your example unvaccinated person that gets covid and needs treatment is ?

Some actually are (Marc berner? the radio show host in florida that just died of it). And more are flaunting it on social media, which wasn't around in the past. Every message or opinion now has the opportunity to reach the masses and go viral.

Back to the medicine aspect of this thread- has anyone seen any guidance for those w the J and J shots- get mrna booster or j and j?

[CordMcNally]

living below sea level in a hurricane zone

I want to discuss this more. When are we going to quit rebuilding that area? If the area I lived in got destroyed every 5 years, I would take the hint.

[Rando]

If viral load in vaccinated and unvaccinated are similar, then does the case for mandated vaccination fall apart a little?

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....31.21261387v1

I would say it another way . The less effective the vaccines are - be it preventing disease, transmission, or severe illness - the less effective vaccine mandates will be. With Delta there's been a shift in vaccines preventing COVID completely to lessening it's severity, from preventing transmission to reducing transmission. So that's a nuance I don't think the public completely gets. I am for mandates for the most part, but I think in the national media there's a belief in the level of protection mandates provide that really isn't deserved..

[White.Beard.Doc]

Back to the medicine aspect of this thread- has anyone seen any guidance for those w the J and J shots- get mrna booster or j and j?

Hot off the presses...

A second J and J booster increases antibody levels by an order of magnitude.

https://www.jnj.com/johnson-johnson-announces-data-to-support-boosting-its-single-shot-covid-19-vaccine

Now we just have to wait for the official recommendation related to this.

[Tim]

Those people aren't running national campaigns about "personal responsibility" and "personal freedom".

Are those prohibited now? Nothing personal, I guess we need to pass sensible legislation to make national campaigns illegal? Way over my head.
Who makes the rules?

[StarTrekDoc]

Just making up numbers here but let's say the vaccine has a 50% chance of preventing you from catching covid. That alone is a 50% decrease in transmission because half the people who would have caught it did not.

Chances are it's way better than 50%.



This argument reminds me of IUDs causing a higher rate of ectopic pregnancy. Even though when you think about it the rate of pregnancy overall is far decreased leading too far fewer ectopic pregnancies. The absolute number is incredibly low but the relative rate when it does happen is slightly higher. The second part is picked up and that's what people remember because it is scary.

You can't have an ectopic if you don't get pregnant in the first place.

You can't spread covid if you don't get covid in the first place.

Relative risk. Vs absolute risk NNT good vs harm

vaccines NNT good is much lower than the NNT to harm. Just look at the hosp/ICU/deaths for the good. And google search for the odd case of vaccine harm.

[Zaphod]

is this where people are now ?

you kinda made the point. people get a ticket for speeding but we don’t take away their car

we still sell alcohol and cigarettes and collect those taxes

and in most places we let women choose if they can have an abortion

yet we should mandate that people give up the right to choose what they do with their own body when it comes to a respiratory illness which may pose a low risk of morbidity or mortality for any one individual ?

when did the left stop being pro choice ?

What? Is this serious? Lol, this is crazy person talk. It ends where choices for your body effect my body, and the body of whoever i may come into contact with, ie an exponential process.

We mandate dozens of vaccines for societal participation, this is no different unless you've allowed yourself to be brain warped by propaganda.

[StarTrekDoc]

I just caught up on this thread. It is mind-boggling to me that a physician could oppose vaccination. It is obvious to me that anyone working in any type of health care facility should be vaccinated. This includes food service workers and custodians. This includes home health aides. How could you live with yourself if you infected a chemo patient? I believe in freedom but spreading infection harms others. Sometimes things just have to be mandated like motorcycle helmets and seat belts. I am sorry that Tuskegee happened but we need to move on and recognize that this virus is more deadly than the vaccine. HCW need to be role models to the general public. If we mistrust vaccines how can we expect the public to get them. I favor vaccine mandates.

Hatton for Gov.

[Tim]

What? Is this serious? Lol, this is crazy person talk. It ends where choices for your body effect my body, and the body of whoever i may come into contact with, ie an exponential process.

We mandate dozens of vaccines for societal participation, this is no different unless you've allowed yourself to be brain warped by propaganda.

Might as well extend this logic to the criminal justice system or immigration. There are a ton of "risks" walking around in the world. Seems we want to pick and choose which risks to eliminate. That is not a rebuttal, that is the emotional reaction to the logic. Rules applied selectively based most times on opinions or politics, not facts.

[StarTrekDoc]

There are population differences.

Immigration - controlling external factors to maintain a certain cohort - remains quite active
Criminal justice - forced/coerced sterilization comes to mind. - we've gone down that road multiple times

-ironically, this vocal minority for umasking and unvac happens to match up on the other side of the aisle of the two examples.

Perhaps what's good for the goose is okay for the gander too?

Definitely shades of grey and slippery slope arguments on what 'public good' can be. That IS what the populace determines as 'public good', right? Certain divisions have their lanes supreme court, congress, executive, and population vote -- what's problematic is several of these institutions have decided to do nothing and simply punt.

-Mandates for clear public good should be fine - healthcare and public education. - protect those who cannot; those who choose not to participate in that protection, can go elsewhere. I think that's fair game.