Medical Discussion of Coronavirus

[artemis]

I’d love too, but unfortunately I work for a large hospital owned group who calls their patients “customers”, so there’s a 0% they’re getting rid of their customers.

That sucks. Administrators need to wake up and realize that medical offices are not a Burger King, and no, the "customers" don't always get to have it their way. If their "customers" start demanding Laetrile injections to treat their cancers, is the hospital administration also going to go along with that?

Too many people in the C suite don't understand that making money is supposed to be the end result of quality medical practice, not a goal in itself.

[FIREshrink]

If delta results in markedly higher viral loads (1000 fold), and viral load generally is associated with increased contagiousness and disease severity, how could it be possible that delta would NOT be associated with more severe disease?

[Tim]

It is what the courts are for and eventually the supreme court.

Remember our supreme court once allowed the fed government to intern its own citizens in the name of public safety

And people are found "innocent" on technicalities. Yet some wish to "cook the books" so to speak on the supreme court to get the specific desired result.

BTW, a long time friend whose parents have since passes away told me that he and his family supported the internment. His parents were "guests" so to speak. The family lived in Hawaii and still does (the next generations). Needless to say, I am sure they may have had different opinions privately or even about the legality. Never wished to delve into that one. Much of the extended family still resides in Japan.
Democracy is sooooooo messy.

[Huggy]

Anyone else dealing with antivaccine/covid conspiracy theories within their family? How are you handling it?

My fiancé's parents who have always been ones to be skeptical and buy-in to conspiracies have gone completely off the rails over the past few years, particularly with Covid. They went from your typical conservative, Fox News watching, completely reasonable voters to absurdly delusional in their beliefs. They collect their information from random deep web articles found on Facebook, NewsMax, New York Post, Breitbart, YouTube, etc. Her mother has started attacking my fiancé whenever they talk on the phone. God forbid she brings up Covid to her. Supposedly we are "sheeple" and all we do is "watch CNN" (which we don't.) It's gotten to the point where I haven't seen them in over two months because I've grown tired of being angrily lectured to about medicine by a pilot and SAHM, and my fiancé has only seen them once during that time. We used to all get together every weekend and spend great time together. Yes, we would often have to redirect conversations but it was never this bad. I previously thought that we could all hold our differences in opinions respectively and enjoy time together, but it appears that this is no longer an option. It's actually quite sad and I'm at a loss of what to do. Our anecdotal stories mean nothing to them. Our opinions mean nothing to them. Simply not talking about these issues is not an option. Can't get through a dinner without them raging. They know better than everyone. Sorry to vent, just frustrated with what is happening within our country.

[snowcanyon]

Anyone else dealing with antivaccine/covid conspiracy theories within their family? How are you handling it?

My fiancé's parents who have always been ones to be skeptical and buy-in to conspiracies have gone completely off the rails over the past few years, particularly with Covid. They went from your typical conservative, Fox News watching, completely reasonable voters to absurdly delusional in their beliefs. They collect their information from random deep web articles found on Facebook, NewsMax, New York Post, Breitbart, YouTube, etc. Her mother has started attacking my fiancé whenever they talk on the phone. God forbid she brings up Covid to her. Supposedly we are "sheeple" and all we do is "watch CNN" (which we don't.) It's gotten to the point where I haven't seen them in over two months because I've grown tired of being angrily lectured to about medicine by a pilot and SAHM, and my fiancé has only seen them once during that time. We used to all get together every weekend and spend great time together. Yes, we would often have to redirect conversations but it was never this bad. I previously thought that we could all hold our differences in opinions respectively and enjoy time together, but it appears that this is no longer an option. It's actually quite sad and I'm at a loss of what to do. Our anecdotal stories mean nothing to them. Our opinions mean nothing to them. Simply not talking about these issues is not an option. Can't get through a dinner without them raging. They know better than everyone. Sorry to vent, just frustrated with what is happening within our country.

I refuse to deal with these people except at work. Hairdresser fired, refuse to meet with in-laws who aren't vaccinated, and frankly with anyone else.

[snowcanyon]

Is this for real? What state are you in?

Mountain time zone.
Yep, they said they will not respect requests for vaccinated caregivers. And they have noted our state is refusing to abide by national OSHA policies, so it's only surgical masks except for "AGPs" which do not include coughing.

[zlandar]

Anyone else dealing with antivaccine/covid conspiracy theories within their family? How are you handling it?

My fiancé's parents who have always been ones to be skeptical and buy-in to conspiracies have gone completely off the rails over the past few years, particularly with Covid. They went from your typical conservative, Fox News watching, completely reasonable voters to absurdly delusional in their beliefs. They collect their information from random deep web articles found on Facebook, NewsMax, New York Post, Breitbart, YouTube, etc. Her mother has started attacking my fiancé whenever they talk on the phone. God forbid she brings up Covid to her. Supposedly we are "sheeple" and all we do is "watch CNN" (which we don't.) It's gotten to the point where I haven't seen them in over two months because I've grown tired of being angrily lectured to about medicine by a pilot and SAHM, and my fiancé has only seen them once during that time. We used to all get together every weekend and spend great time together. Yes, we would often have to redirect conversations but it was never this bad. I previously thought that we could all hold our differences in opinions respectively and enjoy time together, but it appears that this is no longer an option. It's actually quite sad and I'm at a loss of what to do. Our anecdotal stories mean nothing to them. Our opinions mean nothing to them. Simply not talking about these issues is not an option. Can't get through a dinner without them raging. They know better than everyone. Sorry to vent, just frustrated with what is happening within our country.

Yep. Vaccines cause infertility is a common one. I just look at them like they are crazy.

Another common one is that it's some guberment conspiracy to track people. I look at their smartphone with FB or some other social media crap, smile, and tell them they already signed themselves to be monitored more closely then I would ever allow.

[Tim]

It is what the courts are for and eventually the supreme court.

Remember our supreme court once allowed the fed government to intern its own citizens in the name of public safety

Well, there is a little more drama behind the scenes. Today a brother respectfully refused to wear a mask due to the school board in his opinion illegally disobeying the governors legal order. That is the status in the courts, Yes, school board following the county judge recommendation of "civil disobedience". Well, the one day missed from work will be paid and the school district granted an exemption. In his request he indicated a perfect willingness to mask if the courts rule in favor of the "civil disobedience" vote. Since the school board is not actually legally fighting this that left them no legal out except to cave and grant an exemption. Not everything goes to the supreme court. There are a number of areas that the legal process is not being followed.
Please note, this was not about vaccines or masks. He was vaccinated at the first available spot and actually masked to deliver food through the school efforts during the shut down. More folks are concerned about the political liberties being taken, not the actions themselves. The supreme court takes a lot of resources and then they can choose to let the politicians fight it out.

Thoughts and prayers for the 11 soldiers that lost their lives today. The world is getting more dangerous. I am not sure that is a good thing.

A sister hung up last night on a zoom call because her governor has required masks in schools and she works in a state university. Sooo, families are dividing because of different state "mandates".

[artemis]

Anyone else dealing with antivaccine/covid conspiracy theories within their family? How are you handling it?

My fiancé's parents who have always been ones to be skeptical and buy-in to conspiracies have gone completely off the rails over the past few years, particularly with Covid. They went from your typical conservative, Fox News watching, completely reasonable voters to absurdly delusional in their beliefs. They collect their information from random deep web articles found on Facebook, NewsMax, New York Post, Breitbart, YouTube, etc. Her mother has started attacking my fiancé whenever they talk on the phone. God forbid she brings up Covid to her. Supposedly we are "sheeple" and all we do is "watch CNN" (which we don't.) It's gotten to the point where I haven't seen them in over two months because I've grown tired of being angrily lectured to about medicine by a pilot and SAHM, and my fiancé has only seen them once during that time. We used to all get together every weekend and spend great time together. Yes, we would often have to redirect conversations but it was never this bad. I previously thought that we could all hold our differences in opinions respectively and enjoy time together, but it appears that this is no longer an option. It's actually quite sad and I'm at a loss of what to do. Our anecdotal stories mean nothing to them. Our opinions mean nothing to them. Simply not talking about these issues is not an option. Can't get through a dinner without them raging. They know better than everyone. Sorry to vent, just frustrated with what is happening within our country.

Sadly, I don't think there is anything you CAN do other than cut their conversations off. I think the internet has done a great job in promoting Delusional Disorder in people who for whatever reason might have been predisposed to develop it. Once the fall down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole, it seems to be impossible to get them back out of it (unless they have direct, personal experience which unmistakable proves them to be wrong - and even then, that doesn't always work, as witness the COVID victims who have gone to their graves still declaring that what they had was the flu, cancer, coal miner's lung, ANYTHING but COVID).

It's mind-boggling to me that people whose experience is limited to passing a high school biology class think they know more about medicine than a physician does. I've taken college level calculus-based physics classes, but I'd never claim to know more about the proper way to design a bridge than a licensed structural engineer does. Too many people seem to mistake mere opinion for actual knowledge and expertise in a subject.

[Huggy]

Sadly, I don't think there is anything you CAN do other than cut their conversations off. I think the internet has done a great job in promoting Delusional Disorder in people who for whatever reason might have been predisposed to develop it. Once the fall down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole, it seems to be impossible to get them back out of it (unless they have direct, personal experience which unmistakable proves them to be wrong - and even then, that doesn't always work, as witness the COVID victims who have gone to their graves still declaring that what they had was the flu, cancer, coal miner's lung, ANYTHING but COVID).

It's mind-boggling to me that people whose experience is limited to passing a high school biology class think they know more about medicine than a physician does. I've taken college level calculus-based physics classes, but I'd never claim to know more about the proper way to design a bridge than a licensed structural engineer does. Too many people seem to mistake mere opinion for actual knowledge and expertise in a subject.

I actually had one of these patients earlier this week. She could not comprehend why she was having trouble breathing, coughing, requiring oxygen. She was convinced that she "must have the flu or something." We explained to her that she had tested positive for Covid both at urgent care and here. Her brother with whom she worked was in the ICU with Covid. The delusion runs so deep it is insane.

[mercredis]

Anyone else dealing with antivaccine/covid conspiracy theories within their family? How are you handling it?

My fiancé's parents who have always been ones to be skeptical and buy-in to conspiracies have gone completely off the rails over the past few years, particularly with Covid. They went from your typical conservative, Fox News watching, completely reasonable voters to absurdly delusional in their beliefs. They collect their information from random deep web articles found on Facebook, NewsMax, New York Post, Breitbart, YouTube, etc. Her mother has started attacking my fiancé whenever they talk on the phone. God forbid she brings up Covid to her. Supposedly we are "sheeple" and all we do is "watch CNN" (which we don't.) It's gotten to the point where I haven't seen them in over two months because I've grown tired of being angrily lectured to about medicine by a pilot and SAHM, and my fiancé has only seen them once during that time. We used to all get together every weekend and spend great time together. Yes, we would often have to redirect conversations but it was never this bad. I previously thought that we could all hold our differences in opinions respectively and enjoy time together, but it appears that this is no longer an option. It's actually quite sad and I'm at a loss of what to do. Our anecdotal stories mean nothing to them. Our opinions mean nothing to them. Simply not talking about these issues is not an option. Can't get through a dinner without them raging. They know better than everyone. Sorry to vent, just frustrated with what is happening within our country.

Yes, and it's super frustrating. My entire immediate family (parents, sibling) refuse to get the vaccine. A couple of them are fearful of vaccine side effects, and one is just going off the rails. Even though I'm only a 1-hour flight away from them, I haven't seen them in over 13 months by now. I just don't want to take the risk of potentially infecting them (low risk of that happening, but they are completely unprotected). It's sad that they decline my advice, while still gladly accepting my financial help (that's another story).

[StarTrekDoc]

Yes, and it's super frustrating. My entire immediate family (parents, sibling) refuse to get the vaccine. A couple of them are fearful of vaccine side effects, and one is just going off the rails. Even though I'm only a 1-hour flight away from them, I haven't seen them in over 13 months by now. I just don't want to take the risk of potentially infecting them (low risk of that happening, but they are completely unprotected). It's sad that they decline my advice, while still gladly accepting my financial help (that's another story).

Sorry to hear this is happening - it's a hard one. We do set expectations with financial support and may consider adjusting that part of the equation and discussion.

[artemis]

It's sad that they decline my advice, while still gladly accepting my financial help (that's another story).

That's the part that baffles me: they know you are a physician, and they know you care about them, so why don't they trust you? Why do they find random internet sources and TV personalities a more credible source than you?

I can kind of understand the deathly ill unvaccinated people who deny they have COVID even as they are being intubated; denial is a potent defense mechanism that allows them to avoid facing the fact that they have made a terrible (and possibly life-ending) mistake. But the other, I don't understand at all.

[mercredis]

StarTrekDoc: Thanks, I need to put more thought into the financial support. It's a little tough since my parents are older and not financially independent. I want to continue helping them, but JFC, I don't agree one bit with their decision to remain unvaccinated.
artemis: It's pretty maddening. At this point, nothing surprises me when it comes to reasons for refusing the vaccine.

[HikingDO]

I actually had one of these patients earlier this week. She could not comprehend why she was having trouble breathing, coughing, requiring oxygen. She was convinced that she "must have the flu or something." We explained to her that she had tested positive for Covid both at urgent care and here. Her brother with whom she worked was in the ICU with Covid. The delusion runs so deep it is insane.

So bizarre, we had a patient at work like this too. +covid test, typical covid symptoms, but wouldn’t accept the fact that she had covid. Some psych issue going on there.