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  • Originally posted by FIREshrink View Post

    What, no impugning his ethics? Not accusing him of lying, or teaching his children to lie? Missed opportunity, I'm disappointed. 😉

    Please rate the following below in terms of least to most ethical:
    --Getting an 11.5 year old vaccinated by lying about age
    --Getting a booster when fully vaccinated when not immunocompromised
    --A millionaire using welfare as part of a tax management strategy

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    • Originally posted by Sampter View Post


      Please rate the following below in terms of least to most ethical:
      --Getting an 11.5 year old vaccinated by lying about age
      --Getting a booster when fully vaccinated when not immunocompromised
      --A millionaire using welfare as part of a tax management strategy
      Let’s also add in:

      - not vaccinating your child when it was CDC recommended because you wanted to see how other children were effected first… when he admitted that after his postings I just laughed.

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      • I do not feel unethical.

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        • Originally posted by Sundance View Post

          Let’s also add in:

          - not vaccinating your child when it was CDC recommended because you wanted to see how other children were effected first… when he admitted that after his postings I just laughed.
          How is that unethical? I don't really think there is an ethical duty to be vaxxed. Yes it's for your benefit but I don't understand this sentiment of like " you owe it to society to be vaxxed."

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          • Seriously?

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            • Originally posted by FIREshrink View Post

              What, no impugning his ethics? Not accusing him of lying, or teaching his children to lie? Missed opportunity, I'm disappointed. 😉
              I'm just waiting for Dusn to reveal their reasoning is because it just makes it more convenient for going on an international trip.

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              • Originally posted by Panscan View Post

                How is that unethical? I don't really think there is an ethical duty to be vaxxed. Yes it's for your benefit but I don't understand this sentiment of like " you owe it to society to be vaxxed."
                Deleted, too easy

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                • Originally posted by FIREshrink View Post

                  On the other hand about 50,000 minor children have had a parent die from COVID-19. I wonder what affects a child more: wearing a mask in public places for a few months or a year, or having a dead parent?
                  For the record, I think children wearing mask is a good thing. It protects against flu and other nasty resp infections they get in fall / winter and happily give to their schoolmates. It also reduce the risk of them getting COVID, especially with other precautionary measures.

                  But then you bring this hyperbole of 50000 kids orphaned due to COVID and make the argument for a masked child or a dead parent. Is there any evidence that these kids of the 50K parents that got the COVID, got it and then transmitted to their parents? OK, some might have done so.

                  But now there is a vaccine that will essentially prevent these young parents from dying of COVID. So why are the parents not taking it. Is it not the responsibility of the parent to take the vaccine and prevent them from leaving behind orphaned children. or they do not care about them enough to take the vaccine. So it is now the responsibility of the children to not bring COVID home from schools and give it to their irresponsible un-vaccinated parent???
                  Last edited by Kamban; 08-13-2021, 07:35 PM.

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                  • Originally posted by Kamban View Post

                    For the record, I think children wearing mask is a good thing. It protects against flu and other nasty resp infections they get in fall / winter and happily give to their schoolmates. It also reduce the risk of them getting COVID, especially with other precautionary measures.

                    But then you bring this hyperbole of 50000 kids orphaned due to COVID and make the argument for a masked child or a dead parent. Is there any evidence that these kids of the 50K parents got the COVID got it and transmitted to their parents? OK, some might have done so.

                    But now there is a vaccine that will essentially prevent these young parents from dying of COVID. So why are the parents not taking it. Is it not the responsibility of the parent to take the vaccine and prevent them from leaving behind orphaned children. or they do not care about them enough to take the vaccine. So it is now the responsibility of the children to not bring COVID home from schools and give it to their irresponsible un-vaccinated parent???
                    Not all parents are young; not all are healthy; not all are immunocompetent. Many children live with their grandparents, or other older relatives. All of these individuals are at risk for complications and we now suspect many of them mount poor immunogenicity, thus boosters now approved (and in Israel for those 50 and over).

                    Further, no child under 12 is vaccinated; many children have chronic disease, cancer, obesity. Thus in the absence of universal masking, where your mask protects me and vice versa, we are basically offering 11 and under kids no protection at all.

                    All of these individuals, and it turns out this is a lot of society, will benefit from reduced viral circulation.

                    It is a shared responsibility, of course vaccines are the most important step and of course masking forever is not the answer, but in my view getting kids back to school and keeping them there is a priority thus whatever mitigation can be taken to reduce illness and even death, among them and their guardians, is worth considering given delta's virulence and current prevalence.

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                    • Originally posted by FIREshrink View Post

                      Not all parents are young; not all are healthy; not all are immunocompetent. Many children live with their grandparents, or other older relatives. All of these individuals are at risk for complications and we now suspect many of them mount poor immunogenicity, thus boosters now approved (and in Israel for those 50 and over).

                      Further, no child under 12 is vaccinated; many children have chronic disease, cancer, obesity. Thus in the absence of universal masking, where your mask protects me and vice versa, we are basically offering 11 and under kids no protection at all.

                      All of these individuals, and it turns out this is a lot of society, will benefit from reduced viral circulation.

                      It is a shared responsibility, of course vaccines are the most important step and of course masking forever is not the answer, but in my view getting kids back to school and keeping them there is a priority thus whatever mitigation can be taken to reduce illness and even death, among them and their guardians, is worth considering given delta's virulence and current prevalence.
                      I do not disagree with keeping these vulnerable people safe. But in reality these are a tiny, tiny minority people who cannot get the vaccination or don't mount an adequate response. The 99.99% who leave beind orphaned children are healthy people who would not get COVID or will have mild symptoms and not die from it but they choose not to get the vaccine. They are stubborn, stupid people. I do not see why children should be made to have a guilt trip or suffer unnecessarily because of these idiots.
                      Last edited by Kamban; 08-13-2021, 01:20 PM.

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                      • Originally posted by FIREshrink View Post

                        Not all parents are young; not all are healthy; not all are immunocompetent. Many children live with their grandparents, or other older relatives. All of these individuals are at risk for complications and we now suspect many of them mount poor immunogenicity, thus boosters now approved (and in Israel for those 50 and over).

                        Further, no child under 12 is vaccinated; many children have chronic disease, cancer, obesity. Thus in the absence of universal masking, where your mask protects me and vice versa, we are basically offering 11 and under kids no protection at all.

                        All of these individuals, and it turns out this is a lot of society, will benefit from reduced viral circulation.

                        It is a shared responsibility, of course vaccines are the most important step and of course masking forever is not the answer, but in my view getting kids back to school and keeping them there is a priority thus whatever mitigation can be taken to reduce illness and even death, among them and their guardians, is worth considering given delta's virulence and current prevalence.
                        Here’s what people want…an end point. They’re tired of all these mandates with no end in sight. People aren’t accepting a rolling end point. They don’t like it when politicians say ‘we’ll just have to see how it goes’. The immunocompromised are at high risk with lots of viruses.

                        It’s like Vietnam and Afghanistan. We have no plan and it shows. I would even respect a politician that said we’ll do certain measures until children can get vaccinated and then we’re going full steam ahead back to normal. The German Health Minister said they ‘may’ have to keep COVID restrictions until spring 2022. People are tired of bullshit statements like that.

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                        • Ballpark effectiveness?

                          Vaccine 90%?

                          Mask 20%?

                          About right? Some quibbles?

                          When you are not vaxxed 20% is better than 0%.

                          But if you are vaxxed we are talking about 90% vs 92%. Much less impressive.

                          Also if you have the vaccine you have a gentler course. Masks do not help there.


                          Masking in high risk situations can still make sense even with the vaccine.

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                          • Originally posted by FIREshrink View Post

                            Are you a pediatrician? A developmental psychologist? A child psychiatrist? Can you cite studies showing widespread enduring psychological harm to children from wearing a mask? None of the child psychiatrists or psychologists or therapists or pediatricians i know have articulated concerns about lasting developmental damage. Many children and adults have developed anxiety about contagion but that fear should be blamed squarely on the pandemic and the nasty covid virus, not on the mitigation efforts necessary to combat it.

                            On the other hand about 50,000 minor children have had a parent die from COVID-19. I wonder what affects a child more: wearing a mask in public places for a few months or a year, or having a dead parent?

                            https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...-them-n1271728
                            Yeah, like I said my example was anecdotal. Also, how could there be any evidence of widespread psychological harm to children from wearing a mask when we are just 20 months into the pandemic. Time will tell and we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't see there to be much benefit in my 5 year old wearing a mask for 6-8hr in school. I will vaccinate them when its available and mask them up if we are forced to. I just think its about as dumb as wearing a mask in a restaurant but being able to take it off at your table or many of the other ridiculous measures that have been put into place with no strong scientific evidence that they serve any benefit but it makes people feel better.

                            We definitely saw less cases of your typical viral URI in kids last year. Was that due to kids wearing masks or kids just not being in school and everything being locked down? Id wager it was the latter.

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                            • Originally posted by burritos View Post

                              Good point. People seemed to have survived the masking in the Spanish flu pandemic. I think if masks are going to be life destroying for kids, what else will this cohort not tolerate down the line?
                              Being deprived of their Disney vacation?

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                              • Originally posted by OUSOONERDOC View Post

                                We definitely saw less cases of your typical viral URI in kids last year. Was that due to kids wearing masks or kids just not being in school and everything being locked down? Id wager it was the latter.
                                isn't this super easy to study? Don't we actually know this answer decently solidly?

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