Originally posted by billy
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Originally posted by billy View Post
Have you seen any vaccinated patient with symptoms become presumed spreaders to family, etc?
No harm in masking around an immunocompromised brother, I think.Last edited by ObgynMD; 07-25-2021, 03:37 PM.
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Originally posted by Perry Ict View Post
Well, the question in my mind is, does the vaccine still work? If you are vaccinated and you are most likely going to be asymptomatic (with the delta variant) or in some cases have common cold-like symptoms, then in my mind, the vaccine still works, period, and the message from the media, rather than fear mongering, should be something like "if you are vaccinated, good job, no need to panic, but if you aren't vaccinated, get vaccinated now". On the other hand, if the vaccine doesn't work, then that opens a whole new can of worms.
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Originally posted by FIREshrink View Post
Data from Israel raises serious questions about waning vaccine efficacy especially given thousandfold viral loads, including against serious disease. Are these not important facts to report? I don't follow your rationale that the biggest takeaway about Delta is media sensationalism.
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Originally posted by billy View Post
Have you seen any vaccinated patient with symptoms become presumed spreaders to family, etc?
We take the general position that vaccinated breakthroughs tend to be terminal points for virus transmission.
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Originally posted by Perry Ict View Post
Well, the question in my mind is, does the vaccine still work? If you are vaccinated and you are most likely going to be asymptomatic (with the delta variant) or in some cases have common cold-like symptoms, then in my mind, the vaccine still works, period, and the message from the media, rather than fear mongering, should be something like "if you are vaccinated, good job, no need to panic, but if you aren't vaccinated, get vaccinated now". On the other hand, if the vaccine doesn't work, then that opens a whole new can of worms.
-. We (WCI forum especially, and medical community at-large) can do better than media talking heads and share/spread common knowledge and acceptable best practices.
-. Aside from the Israel data, there does NOT appear to be a large scale failure of immunized protection to hospitalization/ICU/death. We're in the middle of the surge now but don't see a change of ratios unvaccinated/vaccinated admissions skewing to immunized yet.
CDC/FDA still have NOT recommended vaccinated folk to alter behavior. They have recommended all the while in large in-door settings that even vaccinated folk should consider wearing a mask. That was true before DeltaV and remains even moreso with the recent surge. People really should reconsider masking indoors in unfamiliar settings if you don't want to be at risk of catching Covid-19.
So for the PUBLIC POLICY standpoint -- For the vaccinated folk - I do believe a general masking requirement is excessive. Then again, it's PUBLIC POLICY we're talking about and that's for the GENERAL GOOD -- not the individual good. So while 60%+ maybe vaccinated -- 35%+ aren't. Good public policy measure would be a general masking order for in-doors to slow the general spread and reduce consumption of public resources.
For the INDIVIDUAL vaccinated person - the risk remains relatively low unless underlying medical conditions, which in that case, the vaccinated person at-risk really should be practicing added individual protective measures.
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The question would be if the initial 2 doses did elicit antibody response that has now waned. If so, there is logic in having a booster vaccine. But if there was no response to the initial 2 doses, then the 3rd dose of the same might or might not work. In that case using a different mRNA vaccine might be better than giving the original vaccine.
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Originally posted by StarTrekDoc View Post
-. Turn off the media sensationalism -- 24/7 news cycles gotta talk about something and taking a reasonable stance simply doesn't get/maintain eyeballs.
-. We (WCI forum especially, and medical community at-large) can do better than media talking heads and share/spread common knowledge and acceptable best practices.
-. Aside from the Israel data, there does NOT appear to be a large scale failure of immunized protection to hospitalization/ICU/death. We're in the middle of the surge now but don't see a change of ratios unvaccinated/vaccinated admissions skewing to immunized yet.
CDC/FDA still have NOT recommended vaccinated folk to alter behavior. They have recommended all the while in large in-door settings that even vaccinated folk should consider wearing a mask. That was true before DeltaV and remains even moreso with the recent surge. People really should reconsider masking indoors in unfamiliar settings if you don't want to be at risk of catching Covid-19.
So for the PUBLIC POLICY standpoint -- For the vaccinated folk - I do believe a general masking requirement is excessive. Then again, it's PUBLIC POLICY we're talking about and that's for the GENERAL GOOD -- not the individual good. So while 60%+ maybe vaccinated -- 35%+ aren't. Good public policy measure would be a general masking order for in-doors to slow the general spread and reduce consumption of public resources.
For the INDIVIDUAL vaccinated person - the risk remains relatively low unless underlying medical conditions, which in that case, the vaccinated person at-risk really should be practicing added individual protective measures.
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Originally posted by StarTrekDoc View Post
??? You still can CATCH it.
If you're flying on a plane of 100% vaccinated folk and all have no symptoms - sure; dump the mask and go buy a lottery ticket too.
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Originally posted by StarTrekDoc View Post
-. Turn off the media sensationalism -- 24/7 news cycles gotta talk about something and taking a reasonable stance simply doesn't get/maintain eyeballs.
-. We (WCI forum especially, and medical community at-large) can do better than media talking heads and share/spread common knowledge and acceptable best practices.
-. Aside from the Israel data, there does NOT appear to be a large scale failure of immunized protection to hospitalization/ICU/death. We're in the middle of the surge now but don't see a change of ratios unvaccinated/vaccinated admissions skewing to immunized yet.
CDC/FDA still have NOT recommended vaccinated folk to alter behavior. They have recommended all the while in large in-door settings that even vaccinated folk should consider wearing a mask. That was true before DeltaV and remains even moreso with the recent surge. People really should reconsider masking indoors in unfamiliar settings if you don't want to be at risk of catching Covid-19.
So for the PUBLIC POLICY standpoint -- For the vaccinated folk - I do believe a general masking requirement is excessive. Then again, it's PUBLIC POLICY we're talking about and that's for the GENERAL GOOD -- not the individual good. So while 60%+ maybe vaccinated -- 35%+ aren't. Good public policy measure would be a general masking order for in-doors to slow the general spread and reduce consumption of public resources.
For the INDIVIDUAL vaccinated person - the risk remains relatively low unless underlying medical conditions, which in that case, the vaccinated person at-risk really should be practicing added individual protective measures.
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Originally posted by ENT Doc View PostAt some point we need to tolerate risk and get on with our lives.
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Originally posted by StarTrekDoc View Post
-. Turn off the media sensationalism -- 24/7 news cycles gotta talk about something and taking a reasonable stance simply doesn't get/maintain eyeballs.
-. We (WCI forum especially, and medical community at-large) can do better than media talking heads and share/spread common knowledge and acceptable best practices.
-. Aside from the Israel data, there does NOT appear to be a large scale failure of immunized protection to hospitalization/ICU/death. We're in the middle of the surge now but don't see a change of ratios unvaccinated/vaccinated admissions skewing to immunized yet.
CDC/FDA still have NOT recommended vaccinated folk to alter behavior. They have recommended all the while in large in-door settings that even vaccinated folk should consider wearing a mask. That was true before DeltaV and remains even moreso with the recent surge. People really should reconsider masking indoors in unfamiliar settings if you don't want to be at risk of catching Covid-19.
So for the PUBLIC POLICY standpoint -- For the vaccinated folk - I do believe a general masking requirement is excessive. Then again, it's PUBLIC POLICY we're talking about and that's for the GENERAL GOOD -- not the individual good. So while 60%+ maybe vaccinated -- 35%+ aren't. Good public policy measure would be a general masking order for in-doors to slow the general spread and reduce consumption of public resources.
For the INDIVIDUAL vaccinated person - the risk remains relatively low unless underlying medical conditions, which in that case, the vaccinated person at-risk really should be practicing added individual protective measures.
I wish they would present it like "If 20 vaccinated people are in a gathering where Covid is present, ONE of them will likely catch it. If in doubt, wear a mask. Don't let it be you and don't accidentally pass it on."
Same with vaccines. A voice of reason rather than "You are a killer" and doing everything possible to encourage businesses to "require vaccinations", requesting tech "shut down " accounts that they view as "disinformation", wanting to read individuals emails and text messages. None of those are in the CDC guidelines. The official CDC guidelines for surgical masks is that they do not prevent in any way contracting covid. However they advertise to "protect you and prevent spread" without any scientific evidence nor policies to support it. Not supported by the official guidelines, but the Director and advertising campaign get a pass for "disinformation". From a PUBLIC POLICY standpoint would you tell them to just give the facts and stop lying (no offense, intentional misrepresenting is a fib). Maybe you can take a new job. "Pubic information Officer Extraordinaire". I'll let you calculate the chances of someone getting Covid and labeling them as a "killer".
Now on a lesser note: What is the replacement for the "Wong–Baker Faces Pain Rating Scale". You know the one, that uses facial expressions to judge the level of pain. Useless with masks!.
StarTrekDoc . thank you for you information and presentation skills. And thanks again for the help on getting vaccines in SD.
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Dr. Anthony Fauci said bringing back mask mandates—even for vaccinated Americans—is "under active consideration."
"If you're asking if I'm part of the discussion, yes I am," he said to host Jake Tapper while speaking on CNN's State of the Union Sunday.
Last edited by Kamban; 07-26-2021, 05:16 AM.
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Originally posted by ENT Doc View Post
This was always the case that you can still catch it. So do you think we should all go around wearing N95s from now on? What’s your end point? I’ve not noted any organization advocating for everyone, including vaccinated people, to wear N95 masks for traveling or indoor activity.
Absolutely agree that there's truly no teeth in public 'mandates' at this point.. I also dislike any labeling of any group of people -- regardless of their choice. So how to proceed? Each individual person and company making their own rules and enforcement. I absolutely believe Target and Walmart and any company has the right to make their safety rules and right to refuse entry/service based on that safety rules -- just like that individual person electing to follow or not follow those rules upon entry.
There's a nuance in personal choice and one professing the right to that has to equally defend the other person's opposite choice to the fullest degree no matter how one disagrees. It cuts both ways.
eg my current MO and what I rec to pts: : being vaccinated and masking
If I'm going into a grocery store at 3AM with no one nearby -- no mask
If I'm going into a place where I believe there's a relatively good chance of sustained exposure - like trader joe's in the mid-afternoon/weekend -- bring my valved vogmask for my protection
If I'm going to a place with known potential and high risk of sustained contact -- airplane ride/indoor concert/movie theater -- new vogmask or n95 .
Prudence based on individual risk scenarios.
Are we going to Disneyland still in 4 weeks? Yep. and bringing my mask for indoor portion of rides too. <---so how is this not living life?Last edited by StarTrekDoc; 07-25-2021, 08:46 PM.
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