Medical Discussion of Coronavirus

[StarTrekDoc]

Totally agree with you related to taking care of respiratory inpts, or any symptomatic pts. Walking down hallways in non-pt areas, in cafeterias, in board meetings, at tumor conference, doesn't seem to be needed, and yet its mandatory.

Maybe I'm an outlier with this but I suspect there are a lot of Docs reading this who agree with me but don't want to be ostracized by supporting my contentions. I think the vitriol directed at me from some of you is intended to silence any others who may agree.

Also, if you don't like reading my posts, skip them.

I don't know what your hospital vaccination rate is. We're in San Diego Academic center and would say that we probably have one of the higher vaccination rates in the country -- yet still docs and nurses are at 90% vaccinated. Extend to wider staff - we're barely at 80%. So that tumor conference holding 20 docs? 2 of them are unvaccinated and can potentially be presymtomatic and silent spread. Our weekly surv prevaccine showed a 1% + PCR asymtomatic carriers and in Dec that surged to 4% asymptomatic before vaccines crushed those numbers.

I believe our system has struck a reasonable balance.

In patient service areas -- 100% masking compliance - all stakeholders.
Small gatherings <10 staffers -- if all agree, can unmask. Asking vaccine status is NOT allowable; one can state own vaccination status though.
Larger gatherings need to be outside or held on zoom.

I hate masks too and take it off as soon and often as I can during work. The reality is we need to protect the most vulnerable and vaccination rates, even in hospital aren't as robust as we would like. Slowing the spread among critical personnel is essential.

We're going to be playing whack-a-mole with variants for some time to come until the virulence lowers to manageable levels mitigated further by updated vaccine 'boosters'.

Frankly, if I were Pfizer/Moderna, I would be secretly be cooking Delta variant vaccines up ready to distribute a multi-valent 'booster'.

[Tim]

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Finally looked up the stats for Texas vs Japan (previous post by K82 mentioned japans jump in rates)- total covid deaths texas &gt;50,000 vs Japan &gt;15000- still want to use that as a case AGAINST masks helping?

Raw numbers don’t really support any conclusions. Here is another for context:
Japan is about 1.8 times smaller than Texas.
Texas is approximately 678,052 sq km, while Japan is approximately 377,915 sq km, making Japan 55.74% the size of Texas. Meanwhile, the population of Texas is ~25.1 million people (100.4 million more people live in Japan).

Density makes it appear more extreme. Well, there is a ton of vacant land in Texas. And Japan also has clusters probably more densely populated. Travel restrictions? Cumulative totals befuddle me. Why is the US so high compared to other countries? I think comparisons are useful more in identifying “best practices”. Just like market performance, the time period in stats are variable. Neither is conclusive, but it is informative.
Just a note: While the world has many best practices relating to travel and mobility. Texas seems to have a booming travel industry. Probably leads the world! No testing, no restrictions at all. The global travel segment is booming. Some check in and some don’t. Free to stop off in any town or city. The volumes are huge but larger than most cities in the US. The point is, apples to apples is difficult. Mobility is different. Might that influence current and future? You betcha.

[K82]

Finally looked up the stats for Texas vs Japan (previous post by K82 mentioned japans jump in rates)- total covid deaths texas >50,000 vs Japan >15000- still want to use that as a case AGAINST masks helping?

My point was that even though a large segment of the media and politicians predicted a disaster in TX after the state lifting the mask mandates, it didn't happen. And Japan, despite instituting a mask mandate still underwent a huge spike in cases. So yes, I think my point still stands.

[K82]

Here is another study with selected quote:

"The pooled results of randomised trials did not show a clear reduction in respiratory viral infection with the use of medical/surgical masks during seasonal influenza. There were no clear differences between the use of medical/surgical masks compared with N95/P2 respirators in healthcare workers when used in routine care to reduce respiratory viral infection."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33215698/

[K82]

Here is another study quote:

"Conclusion: : Existing data pooled from randomized controlled trials do not reveal a reduction in occurrence of ILI (influenza like illness) with the use of facemask alone in community settings."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32496254/

[K82]

Here's one suggesting its not healthy to wear N95 masks:

"Wearing N95 masks results in hypooxygenemia and hypercapnia which reduce working efficiency and the ability to make correct decision.
Medical staff are at increased risk of getting 'Severe acute respiratory syndrome'(SARS), and wearing N95 masks is highly recommended by experts worldwide. However, dizziness, headache, and short of breath are commonly experienced by the medical staff wearing N95 masks. The ability to make correct decision may be hampered, too. The purpose of the study was therefore to evaluate the physiological impact of N95 mask on medical staff."

https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00173017

[K82]

Again, my contention is not that masks are useless. I think the universal masking mandates were poorly conceived and executed. The public has been terrified by all of this, a lot of it needlessly. When you see people getting arrested for surfing without wearing a mask, something is amiss. I'm just trying to bring a little balance to the religion.

[Zaphod]

I dont think its really fair to compare countries and states, etc...I mean you can but you're not going to get anything useful from it. There is a ton of timing luck, you have demographic differences and other policies, thats the point it is incredibly difficult and dependent on methods and easy to get what you want when dealing with so many moving parts. etc....

Just as someone mentioned the NE is by far at this time the worst per capita death rates. Does this have anything to do with masks? Not at all, its due to them having a rampant epidemic prior to anyone paying any attention, and some terrrible policy choices. By the time they locked down they were already going to have weeks of hospital overload increasing deaths and no intervention was going to change it.

IMO using things like that is motivated reasoning or poor understanding of reality. Just like how we cant rely on chinas numbers for test results, they were swamped by the time they figured something was happening, still drowning when they sequenced, still overwhelmed when they first made a test with low volume and still struggling when it came up to speed. They probably missed 98% of infections, but it totally makes sense.

[K82]

I dont think its really fair to compare countries and states, etc...I mean you can but you're not going to get anything useful from it. There is a ton of timing luck, you have demographic differences and other policies, thats the point it is incredibly difficult and dependent on methods and easy to get what you want when dealing with so many moving parts. etc....

Just as someone mentioned the NE is by far at this time the worst per capita death rates. Does this have anything to do with masks? Not at all, its due to them having a rampant epidemic prior to anyone paying any attention, and some terrrible policy choices. By the time they locked down they were already going to have weeks of hospital overload increasing deaths and no intervention was going to change it.

IMO using things like that is motivated reasoning or poor understanding of reality. Just like how we cant rely on chinas numbers for test results, they were swamped by the time they figured something was happening, still drowning when they sequenced, still overwhelmed when they first made a test with low volume and still struggling when it came up to speed. They probably missed 98% of infections, but it totally makes sense.

I don't disagree with most of what you said, except this:

"Just as someone mentioned the NE is by far at this time the worst per capita death rates. Does this have anything to do with masks? Not at all, its due to them having a rampant epidemic prior to anyone paying any attention"


You may be right, but what I'm trying to say is that no one knows. Did masks help? Did they hurt? Did they make no difference? Who knows. The studies to date are not definitive. I'm totally fine with rationale mask use as we have done for decades past, but this whole idea of everyone should wear a mask everywhere is not supported by the data and can actually be detrimental to people in the form of irrational fears.

[K82]

You're comparing different scenarios, and quoting some of those aritcles out of context, and didnt quote the ones showing a benefit. The ones you quotes are too big, broad and unfocused to even remotely have a chance to do it.

Masks are not harmful, thats just a stupid thing to say.

You're saying it isnt helpful for a server who is wearing it improperly, big deal, I would say wearing it in a restaurant is stupid and makes no sense at all and wont help even if covid was in the air. You take it off to eat, again, unless everyone is doing it (which we wont) it doesnt matter.

Your studies were terrible, its good that we dont discuss terrible studies. What about the same type of BS that was discussed about Ivermectin? Then it turns out the study was flat out fraudulent. Get over your mask issues, some will wear some wont, no one cares.

You stated "no one cares", and yet when I posted this topic in the Lounge it got over 1000 views in under a day before it got closed. This was surpassed in a similar time period only by Tangler's "One spouse" thread! It seems its an item of interest to quite a few.

[Hatton]

You stated "no one cares", and yet when I posted this topic in the Lounge it got over 1000 views in under a day before it got closed. This was surpassed in a similar time period only by Tangler's "One spouse" thread! It seems its an item of interest to quite a few.

The post was consolidated here. WCI wants only one thread on coronavirus. Several tangential posts by various posters have been consolidated here.

[K82]

The post was consolidated here. WCI wants only one thread on coronavirus. Several tangential posts by various posters have been consolidated here.

I realize that, I was just pointing out that there is some interest in the topic. I don't believe the "views" count on the other thread are combined with the views on this thread, is that what you're saying or am I misunderstanding your point?

[Sampter]

Here's one suggesting its not healthy to wear N95 masks:

"Wearing N95 masks results in hypooxygenemia and hypercapnia which reduce working efficiency and the ability to make correct decision.
Medical staff are at increased risk of getting 'Severe acute respiratory syndrome'(SARS), and wearing N95 masks is highly recommended by experts worldwide. However, dizziness, headache, and short of breath are commonly experienced by the medical staff wearing N95 masks. The ability to make correct decision may be hampered, too. The purpose of the study was therefore to evaluate the physiological impact of N95 mask on medical staff."

https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00173017

Do you even have a clue about what you are posting?

This is straight up fear mongering about masks.

[K82]

Do you even have a clue about what you are posting?

This is straight up fear mongering about masks.

Have you done a study to refute their findings?

I'm sure you can find one. Kinda makes you wonder how people can be so dogmatic positive that their view of masks is accurate when you can find one that says almost anything about them, huh?

[Lithium]

I admit, I have had it with the mother****ing masks. I can’t wait till I can burn all of them. I’d be delighted if we knew they didn’t work so I never would have to wear one again.

So it’s tempting to glom on to anything that makes it sound like they don’t work or barely do anything, but a mountain of other circumstantial evidence, as well as the tenets of germ theory, make that hard to accept. However, if physicians over a year into the pandemic don’t have a consensus that they’re effective, how much trouble are they worth? When we have excellent vaccines to deploy, the masks are now a ************************ of a squeeze to persuade the public to comply with, especially if they’re imposed regardless of status. Good luck if you’re the CDC or a state/local official trying to sell that to the 4M people who watch Tucker Carlson every night.