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  • I linked above that renewable energy is growing exponentially. It's still very early on, but growing. Also above, new renewable energy is cheaper than new fossil fuels.
    It would be interesting to see where the money would go if there were no subsidies/tax breaks at all and let the free market decide. A random google suggests gas would've been $12.75/gallon in 2011 without oil/gas subsidies/tax breaks. The hard part of figuring this out is direct and indirect benefits to the oil and gas industry and how hard it is to calculate.

    Coal, oil, and natural gas received $5.9 trillion in subsidies in 2020 — or roughly $11 million every minute — according to a new analysis from the International Monetary Fund.

    Explicit subsidies accounted for only 8 percent of the total. The remaining 92 percent were implicit subsidies, which took the form of tax breaks or, to a much larger degree, health and environmental damages that were not priced into the cost of fossil fuels, according to the analysis.

    The report found that 47 percent of natural gas and 99 percent of coal is priced at less than half its true cost, and that just five countries — China, the United States, Russia, India, and Japan — account for two-thirds of subsidies globally.
    https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-...0-report-finds

    Energy independence is important. Why spend the money inefficiently by being stuck in the past rather than investing in the future?

    You're more than welcome to keep your ICE, enjoy oil changes, brake pads, gas, rebuilding the engine/transmission.

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    • Originally posted by Nysoz View Post
      I linked above that renewable energy is growing exponentially. It's still very early on, but growing. Also above, new renewable energy is cheaper than new fossil fuels.
      It would be interesting to see where the money would go if there were no subsidies/tax breaks at all and let the free market decide. A random google suggests gas would've been $12.75/gallon in 2011 without oil/gas subsidies/tax breaks. The hard part of figuring this out is direct and indirect benefits to the oil and gas industry and how hard it is to calculate.

      https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-...0-report-finds

      Energy independence is important. Why spend the money inefficiently by being stuck in the past rather than investing in the future?

      You're more than welcome to keep your ICE, enjoy oil changes, brake pads, gas, rebuilding the engine/transmission.
      Originally posted by The Honorable IMF
      The remaining 92 percent were implicit subsidies, which took the form of tax breaks or, to a much larger degree, health and environmental damages that were not priced into the cost of fossil fuels, according to the analysis.
      So, a majority of the calculated subsidies used for this claim is incredibly subjective and basically made up? Laughable.

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      • Well you can go into the actual paper and read how they calculated the costs. I'm not going to pretend to understand it all and argue climate change science/costs.

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        • Originally posted by Nysoz View Post
          I linked above that renewable energy is growing exponentially. It's still very early on, but growing. Also above, new renewable energy is cheaper than new fossil fuels.
          It would be interesting to see where the money would go if there were no subsidies/tax breaks at all and let the free market decide. A random google suggests gas would've been $12.75/gallon in 2011 without oil/gas subsidies/tax breaks. The hard part of figuring this out is direct and indirect benefits to the oil and gas industry and how hard it is to calculate.

          https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-...0-report-finds

          Energy independence is important. Why spend the money inefficiently by being stuck in the past rather than investing in the future?

          You're more than welcome to keep your ICE, enjoy oil changes, brake pads, gas, rebuilding the engine/transmission.
          "Explicit subsidies accounted for only 8 percent of the total." You have greatly biased sources. New renewable energy is not cheaper where I live and for most of the USA. Zero government funds in this bill for "renewable energy sources". Nada, zip, zero.

          I am not against sound investments in renewable energy. There is no strategy for the USA. Bunch of noise and actually increasing demand.
          Not worth arguing. Using your "8 %" actual subsidies is inaccurate for the cost projections of $12.75/gallon in 2011. How much of the trillions have been invested in actually renewable sources? Seriously, can you name one utility investment under John Kerry's leadership.
          Everything you quote relates to the use of energy, not the supply. That is a "supply chain problem", again.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Nysoz View Post
            Well you can go into the actual paper and read how they calculated the costs. I'm not going to pretend to understand it all and argue climate change science/costs.
            I read it. It’s a joke but it goes along with the ‘green is good and fossil fuels are bad’ ideology. The best part is that those who are that vocal typically don’t realize how dependent they are on fossil fuels.

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            • Fossil fuels aren't going anywhere. The amount we use in plastics by itself will sustain demand. The question is whether we can find balance and not realize any of the many dystopian films of the future. Our lifetime there won't be problems. Our grandchildren? probably. Sins of our fathers kind of thing

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              • Originally posted by StarTrekDoc View Post
                Fossil fuels aren't going anywhere. The amount we use in plastics by itself will sustain demand. The question is whether we can find balance and not realize any of the many dystopian films of the future. Our lifetime there won't be problems. Our grandchildren? probably. Sins of our fathers kind of thing
                You are absolutely correct, fossil fuels are going to end up staying right where they are, in the ground. Petroleum Engineering Graduates declined 30% in one year.
                The narrative and path is such that E&P is dead. Without the lifeblood of PE engineers you won't have any drilling.
                Total Degrees​
                Awarded in 2020
                1,582
                declining 30.3%
                You don't know the oil business. The narrative is and messaging is that the highest paying job undergrad major for the #1 rank major is dropping off a cliff.
                Unfortunately, it takes expertise that the career is perceived as a dead end. Wells require new wells be drilled every year. Imagine medical schools going through 30 % declines in medical school graduates. Petroleum Engineering is as popular as law enforcement at a Defund the Police Rally. You are right, fossil fuels are going to stay in the ground, not going anywhere. You think deflation is bad, try a 30% drop. What could go wrong ? Fire up those solar panels.
                Once you demonize an industry, it get's sick, very very sick.

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                • insightful to look at what’s going on in germany with regards to energy. They obviously have plenty of smart people there and a long history of science and engineering. So how have they managed to get themselves into a pending energy crisis.

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                  • This not burning fossil fuel ideation reminds me of religious institutions trying to prevent people from having non marriage sex. Meh, there's rationale behind it all, but who's kidding who, you ain't gonna stop it.

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                    • Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post
                      insightful to look at what’s going on in germany with regards to energy. They obviously have plenty of smart people there and a long history of science and engineering. So how have they managed to get themselves into a pending energy crisis.
                      As there should be a separation of church and state, there should also be a separation of science and politics.

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                      • just like retirement -- single source (gasprom) can lead to undesirable consequences -- France is in a much better position in having multiple sources still.

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                        • Originally posted by StarTrekDoc View Post
                          just like retirement -- single source (gasprom) can lead to undesirable consequences -- France is in a much better position in having multiple sources still.
                          Yes.
                          Electrified recharging roads would be cool. No more need for plug-in recharging and home batteries or solar cells on the house! Opps, might be back to hybrids.

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                          • There's plenty of alternative energy available. Solar, wind, hydro/tidal, geothermal, nuclear. No one should be arguing a sudden flip, but should be supporting a transition.

                            Definitely should follow science and making the most efficient use of our resources. The problem is when the science/data doesn't meet someone's point of view or way of life, it's obviously wrong. It doesn't help there's plenty of money and special interest groups helping change perception and laws.

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                            • Originally posted by Nysoz View Post
                              There's plenty of alternative energy available. Solar, wind, hydro/tidal, geothermal, nuclear. No one should be arguing a sudden flip, but should be supporting a transition.

                              Definitely should follow science and making the most efficient use of our resources. The problem is when the science/data doesn't meet someone's point of view or way of life, it's obviously wrong. It doesn't help there's plenty of money and special interest groups helping change perception and laws.
                              “There's plenty of alternative energy available. Solar, wind, hydro/tidal, geothermal, nuclear. No one should be arguing a sudden flip, but should be supporting a transition.”
                              I see very little activity or capital being invested by government or private business. That is infrastructure I would support.

                              Comment


                              • It's hard to see what you don't want to. Drive anywhere west of I-35 and Texas is nothing but windmills. Most of those turbine blades went right up from the Port of Houston, where you live. There has been a constant stream of blades for twenty years.

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