Tesla

[Nysoz]

Oil and gas subsidies/tax breaks have been around since 1916. As energy transitions, it makes sense to support the move away from fossil fuels as well.

An apartment complex wouldn't need 200-500 chargers. Depending on driving habits you don't need to charge every day so not every spot has to have a high speed (or any) charger.

As for the cost, they will just charge $50/month more for an ev charging spot and profit from that. Or just list it as an amenity and roll that cost into higher rent/hoa fees. Or just charge for the electricity itself. Then any type of cost attributed to EV charging installation is 30% tax deductible. Anyway you frame it, over a long time frame powering EVs is much cheaper than ICE. My gas to electricity monthly spend went from around $200 to $40.

The transition will take time to do it reasonably. My guess is by 2040-2050 for a significant majority of transport to move to EV.

[Tim]

Oil and gas subsidies/tax breaks have been around since 1916. As energy transitions, it makes sense to support the move away from fossil fuels as well.

An apartment complex wouldn't need 200-500 chargers. Depending on driving habits you don't need to charge every day so not every spot has to have a high speed (or any) charger.

As for the cost, they will just charge $50/month more for an ev charging spot and profit from that. Or just list it as an amenity and roll that cost into higher rent/hoa fees. Or just charge for the electricity itself. Then any type of cost attributed to EV charging installation is 30% tax deductible. Anyway you frame it, over a long time frame powering EVs is much cheaper than ICE. My gas to electricity monthly spend went from around $200 to $40.

The transition will take time to do it reasonably. My guess is by 2040-2050 for a significant majority of transport to move to EV.

Might as well buy an apartment complex. I don’t see anyone doing this yet. I do believe you are guessing. That is 100% fine, you are a physician not an apartment builder. Even with the building and the costs, where is the renewable energy coming from?
First, please identify the subsidies for the oil industry and it’s purpose. Cost/benefit.
Second, please identify the food subsidies for the agriculture industry and it’s purpose. Cost/benefit.
Third, please identify the subsidies for the rural electrification. Cost/benefit.
Don’t really do it. The point is Government policy was to make available proven technology that could be scaled. From source to end user IF it was economically feasible, private capital would be rushing in. It’s a money maker! Build solar farms, build solar panels, build out distribution systems. None of that is happening. Utilities are available to all, but there is no money in it on a large scale.

The approach being used is government making fossil fuels disappear. I would suggest making renewable energy a better choice to consumers.

Improvement vs penalties. Gas pumps would go the way of buggy whips. No market, cars are better.
Relying in individuals and companies will never work. Not a better alternative.

[Random1]

I just saw a chinese EV, that has replaceable batteries, the batteries are rented on a monthly subscription. The batteries can be replaced at a charging station in less than 5 minutes in an automated process

[StarTrekDoc]

When there is sufficient consumer mass to demand for product, the market will provide. The Simplist American business model. The increase prevslence of electric vehicles will drive the amenities.

Gas stations didn't just pop up because of the horse and buggy. Enough cars out there brought the demand. You can't drive a mile without hitting a gas station. Total saturation. France we had to drive several km to get to a station...very weird and different experience...I suspect due to regulations.

Same will happen with charging stations, locations, and prevalence. Fast charging and range have become standard to adequately support the mass market. This is why Tesla charging stations are starting to transition to open it's network....it's a money maker opportunity.

This will only entice even more stations to open with their amenities...or I see more existing restaurants installing them to entice them to have a quick meal or snack while charging. Eat with us and code included for free charge while you dine.

Destination chargers. Already seeing most higher end hotels valet with this. Also city valets condos have this too...San Francisco condos do it do to demand. Market will drive the amenity. Yes the cost will past along as any other amenity too.

[Nysoz]

Solar is being scaled.

It's the cheapest form of new energy. https://www.carbonbrief.org/solar-is...-confirms-iea/

It's forming an exponential growth curve in the US. https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ces-from-2000/

Wind and solar generated 10% of the world's energy in 2021. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/...global-energy/

If we had solar panels covering the size of lake Michigan, it would power the US. https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/so...-united-states

I'm not an apartment builder but a consumer. When I had my Tesla still, we only looked at apartments that had EV chargers. Not having that amenity ruled out us living there. When I used to take it on road trips, we preferentially picked hotels that had chargers there. If I had no where else to charge, I'd go out to eat at a place that had a super charger so I can have a meal while the car was charging once a week. As EV adoption increases, more than likely this will continue to expand as well.

One of the reasons why it's hard to justify home solar in some areas is because of the lower rate of energy buyback from utilities. You buy electricity at $0.2 but sell excess solar energy generated back at $0.02. If that was closer to even, I'm sure more people would look into it. Then if you're allowed to sell energy back at peak times to prevent brownouts at $2 I'm sure even more people would be interested. https://electrek.co/2022/08/18/tesla...g-grid-future/

Especially if you don't need to buy an expensive battery for the house and you can just use your car. https://www.motortrend.com/features/...ng-home-power/ https://www.topgear.com/car-news/ele...se-nissan-leaf

As for Nio and battery swaps, it helps people in apartments or places without chargers, but terribly inefficient for the company itself. Every battery pack in that battery changing station is another potential car that could've been sold.

[Tim]

When there is sufficient consumer mass to demand for product, the market will provide. The Simplist American business model. The increase prevslence of electric vehicles will drive the amenities.

Gas stations didn't just pop up because of the horse and buggy. Enough cars out there brought the demand. You can't drive a mile without hitting a gas station. Total saturation. France we had to drive several km to get to a station...very weird and different experience...I suspect due to regulations.

Same will happen with charging stations, locations, and prevalence. Fast charging and range have become standard to adequately support the mass market. This is why Tesla charging stations are starting to transition to open it's network....it's a money maker opportunity.

This will only entice even more stations to open with their amenities...or I see more existing restaurants installing them to entice them to have a quick meal or snack while charging. Eat with us and code included for free charge while you dine.

Destination chargers. Already seeing most higher end hotels valet with this. Also city valets condos have this too...San Francisco condos do it do to demand. Market will drive the amenity. Yes the cost will past along as any other amenity too.

Every place is different. Land available and grocery stores and local shops are every mile or corner. Same with the chain pharmacies.
Urban living it is a totally different lay of the land. The nearest grocery or pharmacy or gas station may be miles. Much depends on proximity to main traffic flows.
You don't see Target or Krogers opening up stores in highest cost land. US perspective only. Buggy whips disappear due to lack of demand. Not because of government subsidies or penalties on horse waste. Those horses will take a dump anywhere. Some place WILL need subsidies. Probably more in the high density areas. Yep, lower incomes are going to need affordable access to electricity. Giving out food, why not gas or electricity?
I would prefer a couple of prototypes subsidized to prove the proof of concept on scale. That is how the private sector works.

[Kamban]

I just saw a chinese EV, that has replaceable batteries, the batteries are rented on a monthly subscription. The batteries can be replaced at a charging station in less than 5 minutes in an automated process

What happens when your monthly subscriptions runs out. Do you end up with a car without a battery, that goes nowhere?

This might work out better for leases, where the battery subscription is built into the lease.

[Kamban]

As for Nio and battery swaps, it helps people in apartments or places without chargers, but terribly inefficient for the company itself. Every battery pack in that battery changing station is another potential car that could've been sold.

If I were a new car owner, the last thing I would want is to swap my new battery pack for one that has gone through most of its life cycles. And if I had an old Nio with a battery pack on its last legs I would be all for swaps, hoping I score a brand new battery in my next swap and then get to keep it.

Tesla batteries are huge and heavy and needs to be held in place so that it is stable in a high speed environment. The last thing I want is a battery that is not positioned well after a battery swap. And with mileage in the 200-400 mile range between swaps, there is more room for error. Finally I want to charge at home at night while I sleep and not waste 5-10 mins at a inconvenient place for battery swaps.

This is a niche idea and product.

[burritos]

Cool. Just “a” parking spot in Boston was $300/ month. And the hospital charged $200 for fellowship/residents and a walk of about 1/4 mile. Every floor of my daughters high rise garage has 2 EV spots. Probably 100 cars per floor. My brother gets a garage for like $50 at his apartment. Amenities cost, and redoing wiring and capacity for housing is not an amenity, it is a utility with a large impact, Now “wireless charging” would be a game changer. Just need solar panels without the panels. The reality is from start to finish, renewable energy is not scalable at this time.

Did you raise his rent after he installed the 220? Landlords choice.

Interestingly it wasn't. I wanted to at the lease renewal, but my wife and property manager were against it.

[Nysoz]

If I were a new car owner, the last thing I would want is to swap my new battery pack for one that has gone through most of its life cycles. And if I had an old Nio with a battery pack on its last legs I would be all for swaps, hoping I score a brand new battery in my next swap and then get to keep it.

Tesla batteries are huge and heavy and needs to be held in place so that it is stable in a high speed environment. The last thing I want is a battery that is not positioned well after a battery swap. And with mileage in the 200-400 mile range between swaps, there is more room for error. Finally I want to charge at home at night while I sleep and not waste 5-10 mins at a inconvenient place for battery swaps.

This is a niche idea and product.

This is the difference though, you only own the car. You lease/rent a battery. So you don't care if there's degradation or not because the next one you get in a week will still get you from point A to B.

But yes, niche idea and product.

[Tim]

What happens when your monthly subscriptions runs out. Do you end up with a car without a battery, that goes nowhere?

This might work out better for leases, where the battery subscription is built into the lease.

This business model exists for other items, some automotive. Tires (new and used) can be leased. Right next door to the car lot that advertises "no credit no problemo", and the car title loan place which is next toe the pawn shop. The rent to own furniture place is across the street.

The answer is simple: Buy a new or used battery. Might check the junk yards where you can pull the parts and install yourself. There is absolutely no reason for EV would evolve differently.

[StarTrekDoc]

Small problem when the most popular skateboard design model currently used has the batteries as an integral part of the stability of the vehicle. Whole new generation redesign will need to take place for mainstream swappable batteries -- certainly a market may develop in the future for need of swappable.

That's where the industry is going at the moment.

[Tim]

Small problem when the most popular skateboard design model currently used has the batteries as an integral part of the stability of the vehicle. Whole new generation redesign will need to take place for mainstream swappable batteries -- certainly a market may develop in the future for need of swappable.

That's where the industry is going at the moment.

A trillion dollar bet, with a hope of a plan. That is the way as you say "at the moment". We have been through this before.
PC's (OS2, IOS, DOS-later windows, and NEC had its own kanjii version). No standard and a lot of false starts. Can you imagine a government plan for computer systems? That is where the government has pushed industry.

[StarTrekDoc]

Government not really THAT prescriptive on the plan. It's quite a simple subsidy for EVs. People will either choose the available vehicles and/or industry will develop vehicles to fit those parameters if there is a demand for them and a support industry will develop around those vehicles when hit whatever critical mass needed to trigger those supports.....all that is pretty organic in any general subsidy.

I can see Tesla trying to bran a dumbed down model 3 for this in the near term; but it really will push them to make an affordable compact sedan that will satisfy both the American subsidy market as well as the little car loving European market. We'll see if they have the gumption to do this or not since a lot of anticipated Texas factory is going to Y, cyber and semi.

[Tim]

Government not really THAT prescriptive on the plan. It's quite a simple subsidy for EVs. People will either choose the available vehicles and/or industry will develop vehicles to fit those parameters if there is a demand for them and a support industry will develop around those vehicles when hit whatever critical mass needed to trigger those supports.....all that is pretty organic in any general subsidy.

I can see Tesla trying to bran a dumbed down model 3 for this in the near term; but it really will push them to make an affordable compact sedan that will satisfy both the American subsidy market as well as the little car loving European market. We'll see if they have the gumption to do this or not since a lot of anticipated Texas factory is going to Y, cyber and semi.

Not prescriptive? It has been rather loud and clear. Instances are all over the place. From some local regulations and national actions . There have been many very significant efforts, actions, and our right prohibitions against using fossil fuels. Everything from prohibiting houses from new gas stations, new houses connecting to natural gas, leases, permitting delays for existing leases, selling petroleum reserves to China, coal and let us not ignore heavy handed cancellation of distribution systems (pipelines). Where are all these solar and wind turbine domestic projects or basic research? No, not prescriptive they have done zero except to cutoff supplies. It is a fool’s plan.
It’s like telling a patient, no more food, you are obese. The metric will show a great improvement.
No more obese people. There is no plan, only to shut down the supply. No one is rushing to develop or develop renewable energy. Actually, it’s let you waste your time and money. Eventually the starving population will be 100% not overweight. Yes, I doubt it will reach that point.
What you are missing is renewable energy is about a whole lot more than cars for thin rich people. Stop the lunacy and starvation tactics. This country need energy. Focus on the supply side. Simple message, the retail side is easy (relatively speaking). Get real please. Rebates on cars is fool’s gold. If people wanted electric cars, manufactures would find a way.
If this is more than messaging, electric generation capacities from a variety of sources would be priority #1. Remember, this is to save the earth. Less than 10 years. Right?
Apologies for being snarky. You can keep your EV, just drive it longer and replace the battery.
Fair?