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  • It’s going to be a difficult question. Once car self driving is objectively safer than human driving, how much better will it have to be to ban human driving altogether? How many self driving accidents will be acceptable vs our current accident rate?

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    • Originally posted by Nysoz View Post
      It’s going to be a difficult question. Once car self driving is objectively safer than human driving, how much better will it have to be to ban human driving altogether? How many self driving accidents will be acceptable vs our current accident rate?
      Don’t we first have to ban old people and teens first? And how about setting the max speed at 55mph first. I mean that is if we REALLY care about car accident fatalities? We obviously don’t, unless someone can get rich off the solution in some weird contorted way like AI driving. The netherlands did and they converted the city into a biking haven.

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      • Originally posted by Nysoz View Post
        It’s going to be a difficult question. Once car self driving is objectively safer than human driving, how much better will it have to be to ban human driving altogether? How many self driving accidents will be acceptable vs our current accident rate?
        I think that is a long way away. Self driving may be safer in LA at a given point but grossly fail in middle of BFE kansas where there are poor road markings or signage for example.

        People like being in control. One of these things is going to drive off a mountain-side somewhere with a family in it and it will set it back years, then we will pass some laws regulating and limiting it. Policy responds to tragedy.

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        • Yeah I agree it may not be in our lifetime if ever, as humans like having control in their lives. But at some point it'll be safer to let all the cars drive themselves rather than joe schmo that's on their phone, running the red light, speeding/racing, driving drunk, making illegal turns, road raging and shooting people. What if for every 1 robot car that drives itself off the cliff, there's 5 human driven cars doing it?

          It's definitely going to be an interesting discussion and policy if/when it gets to that point.

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          • Can people even read maps anymore?

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            • We want to feel in control which is going to delay this far beyond when the data shows it is safer. There are also liability issues, for instance when the robot car drives off the mountain, is the manufacturer liable?

              At some point it will definitely be safer but there are tons of things we could do to make driving safer now that we really don't do. We could have reduced speed limits, stricter penalties for people who commit driving infractions, not allow the person with 5 DUI to keep their license etc etc. We basically make an economic tradeoff because the externalities for stripping people's licenses are considered worth the relative increased risk of people being harm in traffic accidents.

              I see people changing multiple lanes at a time every single day, weaving in and out of traffic, using their brakes on the highway, basically all things you should never have to do under normal circumstances. Or my favorite, about to miss their exit so they slam on their brakes in the middle of the highway instead of just going to the next one and spending a couple more minutes driving. Its strange to me how many objectively terrible and dangerous drivers there are and how poorly we clearly do as a society at dis-incentivizing their behavior.

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              • Originally posted by burritos View Post
                Can people even read maps anymore?
                I typically pull out my Rand McNally but it makes my wife feel 'uncomfortable' when I do it while driving and steer with my knee.

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                • Originally posted by burritos View Post
                  Can people even read maps anymore?
                  Only if it's on a phone. I bet people can't fold maps anymore (although historically most people couldn't on a good day either).


                  Originally posted by Panscan View Post
                  We want to feel in control which is going to delay this far beyond when the data shows it is safer. There are also liability issues, for instance when the robot car drives off the mountain, is the manufacturer liable?
                  I guess at a bridge point there's supervision involved. Then it would potentially still be on the driver. The autonomous car would be a tool, can be used well but someone that isn't keeping an eye on it or using it incorrectly is still at fault just like a loaded gun.

                  In the distant future where you had absolutely no control, then probably on the manufacturer. Unless it's somehow proven that no matter what the accident was unavoidable. Then you start getting into the weeds of AI making decisions. If the car had a choice to either hit a child in the road or drive itself (and a passenger) off that cliff, which would it do? What about 4 passengers in the car and an old person vs child in the road? edit: (I just realized isn't this a dilemma in iRobot? where a robot saves will smith and not the child because he had a higher chance of survival?)
                  Last edited by Nysoz; 04-21-2021, 09:17 AM.

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                  • A succinct summary of the occupants and the problem with the fire.
                    • Kept reigniting. That appears to be an acknowledged physics issue with batteries.
                    • Engineer Everett Talbot, 69, was killed. His friend, 59-year-old Dr. William Varner, also died in the crash - anesthesiologist.
                    https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc13.c...lbot/10534080/

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                    • https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...ls-fire-chief/

                      Sad story for sure but still have to wait for the results to figure out what happened.

                      To go on the other side of the spectrum, unverified source was saying both passengers were buckled in which leads to speculation that there was a driver that escaped the vehicle and now there’s a coverup to avoid drunk driving/manslaughter charges.

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                      • Originally posted by Nysoz View Post
                        https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...ls-fire-chief/

                        Sad story for sure but still have to wait for the results to figure out what happened.

                        To go on the other side of the spectrum, unverified source was saying both passengers were buckled in which leads to speculation that there was a driver that escaped the vehicle and now there’s a coverup to avoid drunk driving/manslaughter charges.
                        Definitely a possibility. From the local coverage, it seems like the spouses or others were around. I personally question whether Tiger Woods (Genesis) should have been tested, DUI has a history there. We have had speculation here about DUI. My guess is on this it is certainly a possibility here as well.

                        Just be aware that the "Fire Chief" is chief of a "local volunteer fire department". This is similar to a Municipal Utility District. I am simply cautioning that these positions are not highly paid experts necessarily. Most came through the volunteer ranks, worked as a fireman in a larger fire department and may have had connections. It is a useful position and requires some expertise but it is not a predefined standard. This particular one worked for 26 years in the Austin FD. His explanation was the reigniting. From the name The Woodlands, I can confirm that the area is heavily wooded. You need a permit to remove a tree on your lot. Deed restrictions are strictly enforced. I don't see your reference as "the other side". Battery issue and unknown cause. Same point of view. I do appreciate the Fire Chief putting context around the battery issue.


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                        • Nysoz It's a pretty nice neighborhood. You'd assume that some homes have outside cameras, or at least Nest/Ring doorbells to catch someone running around the time of the accident.

                          For Tesla as a company, this is likely not their biggest issue since it's a narrative stock and the believers are just as irrational as the non-believers. The believers will continue to keep the stock elevated, and the shorts have been blown up enough to stay away. It'll take the US, EU, or CCP (or collectively all 3) to actually challenge Elon to make investors think twice.

                          For FSD/AP, as well as AI, this is the major obstacle. There will be deaths as this technology gets developed. As a whole, is it safer than a human- possibly. But we may never see it's full potential in our lifetime if the threshold for safety is zero malfunction in real world conditions.

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                          • Originally posted by Tim View Post

                            Definitely a possibility. From the local coverage, it seems like the spouses or others were around. I personally question whether Tiger Woods (Genesis) should have been tested, DUI has a history there. We have had speculation here about DUI. My guess is on this it is certainly a possibility here as well.
                            I thought that Tiger's toxicology stuff came back clean and they cleared him of impairment charges. If I remember right, he was late for something and was going 80 something MPH on a road with a speed limit in the 30s or 40s and a curve with a history of wrecks.

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                            • My twin brother (surgeon) just ordered the cyber truck. bullet proof stainless steel truck. He loves it. Ridiculous IMO.

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                              • Originally posted by CordMcNally View Post

                                I thought that Tiger's toxicology stuff came back clean and they cleared him of impairment charges. If I remember right, he was late for something and was going 80 something MPH on a road with a speed limit in the 30s or 40s and a curve with a history of wrecks.
                                They never tested. At the scene, the officer (from what I remember) said he did not appear under any influence. End of any tests. The cause was as you indicated from the law enforcement investigation. I was under the impression that they did "no tests" at all. Judgement call based on the original officer.

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