Tesla

[ko]

StarTrekDoc wrote:

It’s human nature to massage ‘stats’ to your favor.  As docs we try to be more balanced.  Clearly on fansites it’s going to be like that.    I think I’m trying to be quite fair on the timing and have offered more specifics if desired

Yes — EV driving today takes planning.  It took less planning than our RV trip two summers ago which really was fun, but took time to find parking for such beasts when visiting towns.   Road trips do remain the Achilles heel, but it’s not much pain  and surprised on the timing of the charges and spots.

Specifics:  One can use the onboard computer, but I chose https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ as my planner as didn’t want any surprises on our first extended trip.

The chargers are spaced usually every 100-200 miles depending on towns and topography.  On average it was about 2-3 hours travel time.

The nature of battery charging is that it’s the fastest when the state of charge (SOC) is lower and starts to taper at about 80%.   Most current chargers (Version 2) charge at 150kwH.

My driving takes 265-280 Watts/mi; so 200mi = 56kw needed which translated to about 30min of charge usually.   That’s where the math of 30min usually comes in and gets one on average about 2.5 hours of driving.   Most of the time it was more on the 2 hours driving and taking about 20min charge to get enough to the next destination —  all time told per stop averaged about 30min with the on/off ramp and going for snack/bathroom.

Data point:  The charging time actually was faster than our snack/bathroom time each time except for the Kingmen stop where I really wanted to top off the charge since we were doing extra driving along Route 66 with unplanned stops. — so hung out there for 10minutes longer.

It’s actually fun to hang out and chat with the folk there; like rest stops.  It’s part of the road trip adventure.   RV trip really met some characters in the parks!

Edit:  For those who really care on the dwell times, the next generation V3 will charge at 250kwH speeds which will truly get the dwell times down to 10-15minutes.  It’s then it will be like fueling at gas stations for quick refuels for those seeking that quick in/out.     Couple that with batteries getting to 400+ miles in the near future —  3 years from now the landscape will be very much different on roadtrips.    Distance EV is still in its infancy and already feasible and timewise, not really impacted from ‘normal’ driving routines.

Click to expand...

Ok to be clear, even the v3 charger won't be like gas station fueling. Quit saying it will be. Will it be faster than v2? Yes. Will it be pretty fast in general at 10-15 minutes? Yes. Is it as fast as 2-3 minutes to pump gas? No. Not even close.

Now, the difference between 2-3 minutes and 10-15 minutes may or may not be meaningful to someone - that's an individual preference. But it is simply not the same, and not even almost the same. Just stop.

[Craigy]

ko wrote:

StarTrekDoc wrote:

It’s human nature to massage ‘stats’ to your favor.  As docs we try to be more balanced.  Clearly on fansites it’s going to be like that.    I think I’m trying to be quite fair on the timing and have offered more specifics if desired

Yes — EV driving today takes planning.  It took less planning than our RV trip two summers ago which really was fun, but took time to find parking for such beasts when visiting towns.   Road trips do remain the Achilles heel, but it’s not much pain  and surprised on the timing of the charges and spots.

Specifics:  One can use the onboard computer, but I chose https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ as my planner as didn’t want any surprises on our first extended trip.

The chargers are spaced usually every 100-200 miles depending on towns and topography.  On average it was about 2-3 hours travel time.

The nature of battery charging is that it’s the fastest when the state of charge (SOC) is lower and starts to taper at about 80%.   Most current chargers (Version 2) charge at 150kwH.

My driving takes 265-280 Watts/mi; so 200mi = 56kw needed which translated to about 30min of charge usually.   That’s where the math of 30min usually comes in and gets one on average about 2.5 hours of driving.   Most of the time it was more on the 2 hours driving and taking about 20min charge to get enough to the next destination —  all time told per stop averaged about 30min with the on/off ramp and going for snack/bathroom.

Data point:  The charging time actually was faster than our snack/bathroom time each time except for the Kingmen stop where I really wanted to top off the charge since we were doing extra driving along Route 66 with unplanned stops. — so hung out there for 10minutes longer.

It’s actually fun to hang out and chat with the folk there; like rest stops.  It’s part of the road trip adventure.   RV trip really met some characters in the parks!

Edit:  For those who really care on the dwell times, the next generation V3 will charge at 250kwH speeds which will truly get the dwell times down to 10-15minutes.  It’s then it will be like fueling at gas stations for quick refuels for those seeking that quick in/out.     Couple that with batteries getting to 400+ miles in the near future —  3 years from now the landscape will be very much different on roadtrips.    Distance EV is still in its infancy and already feasible and timewise, not really impacted from ‘normal’ driving routines.

Click to expand…

Ok to be clear, even the v3 charger won’t be like gas station fueling. Quit saying it will be. Will it be faster than v2? Yes. Will it be pretty fast in general at 10-15 minutes? Yes. Is it as fast as 2-3 minutes to pump gas? No. Not even close.

Now, the difference between 2-3 minutes and 10-15 minutes may or may not be meaningful to someone – that’s an individual preference. But it is simply not the same, and not even almost the same. Just stop.

Click to expand...

Additionally, as battery size grows, so too will charge time.

It'll be closer to gas station fueling, where available.

 

[StarTrekDoc]

ko wrote:

StarTrekDoc wrote:

It’s human nature to massage ‘stats’ to your favor.

Click to expand…

Ok to be clear, even the v3 charger won’t be like gas station fueling. Quit saying it will be. Will it be faster than v2? Yes. Will it be pretty fast in general at 10-15 minutes? Yes. Is it as fast as 2-3 minutes to pump gas? No. Not even close.

Now, the difference between 2-3 minutes and 10-15 minutes may or may not be meaningful to someone – that’s an individual preference. But it is simply not the same, and not even almost the same. Just stop.

Click to expand...

2-3 minutes -  Probably a timed study on that as even the most empty and efficient system isn't going to get your tank filled and out on that time.  -- so just stop too.

Some folk don't like new tech.  It bothers them.  Not forcing it on you by any means, so not quite sure why the hate beyond haters hate.

 

[StarTrekDoc]

Craigy wrote:

Additionally, as battery size grows, so too will charge time.

It’ll be closer to gas station fueling, where available.

 

Click to expand...

Same as large tanks for gas--- but there's one crucial difference:   SOC and the sweet spot for rapid charging expands with a larger capacity battery and allows faster and deeper charges in a more compressed time.

Think of it like the old days of gassing up was a gravity fed gas can.   Now, it's pressure fed.   We've seen slow pumps and fast pumps and know the difference it is between the two.

New chargers essentially have faster pumps  -- shorter dwell times at the charger itself  Relative reduction of 25-40% is good incremental improvement for 2nd to 3rd generation tech.

And larger batteries will allow faster and larger chargers to allow for those DVT seeking 4+hour/300mile segment driving at a time folk that choose to do so by skipping a few charger stops if so desired after a single meal stop.

[Dermonc]

I didn’t read most of this thread but i thought I’d add my 2 cents. I own a Tesla model 3 LR, I drive 1 - 1.5 hours each way to and from work most days, the discussion about charging speed is pretty silly in my opinion, I always charge at home. When we go on trips more than 3 hours away we take our ICE vehicle, but that has happened 1 time in the 6 months since owning (and I decided to do that more out of convenience of not planning where to stop than inability). The only times I’ve used a Tesla charger was before I got my 220v charger installed, the first week of ownership. It fully charges easily overnight. If you didn’t have a garage with at least 110v I think it would be pretty crazy to get a Tesla but if you do it is a non issue and much more convenient than going to the gas station.

[StarTrekDoc]

@Dermonc - absolutely - that's what I love about EVs -  full tank every day when we wake up;

and cheap.  100 miles costs us 28kW, which costs us $4.20.  Try to get that out of a performance sports sedan.  My Infiniti G37 averages 20MPH (yes, we like driving our sports cars).   That's over $20 if we're lucky to find cheap gas (we can't unless go to Costco 10 mi away).   That $15 differential, drove 27,000 miles last year on the Tesla 3 = $4000 savings on fuel alone.

[Craigy]

A new 52wk low this morning.

[q-school]

Dermonc wrote:

I didn’t read most of this thread but i thought I’d add my 2 cents. I own a Tesla model 3 LR, I drive 1 – 1.5 hours each way to and from work most days, the discussion about charging speed is pretty silly in my opinion, I always charge at home. When we go on trips more than 3 hours away we take our ICE vehicle, but that has happened 1 time in the 6 months since owning (and I decided to do that more out of convenience of not planning where to stop than inability). The only times I’ve used a Tesla charger was before I got my 220v charger installed, the first week of ownership. It fully charges easily overnight. If you didn’t have a garage with at least 110v I think it would be pretty crazy to get a Tesla but if you do it is a non issue and much more convenient than going to the gas station.

Click to expand...

do you live in a cold weather state?  last winter, we saw owners with significant reduction in range during bad weather months.  i'm not saying it's insurmountable, but i'm not sure i would say it's silly to consider charging speed if someone has a long drive.  i don't own a tesla, but interested in electric.   most of the people i personally know with tesla, it is a third car, and they enjoy owning it and driving it, but aren't willing to go down to two cars.  i presume it's because of either bad weather or frequent long drives.

i see the same for owners of porsches and ferraris, they simply need another car enough that it's an associated part of owning the car.

ymmv

 

 

[burritos]

StarTrekDoc wrote:

@dermonc – absolutely – that’s what I love about EVs –  full tank every day when we wake up;

and cheap.  100 miles costs us 28kW, which costs us $4.20.  Try to get that out of a performance sports sedan.  My Infiniti G37 averages 20MPH (yes, we like driving our sports cars).   That’s over $20 if we’re lucky to find cheap gas (we can’t unless go to Costco 10 mi away).   That $15 differential, drove 27,000 miles last year on the Tesla 3 = $4000 savings on fuel alone.

Click to expand...

Is that with solar panels?

[Nysoz]

burritos wrote:

StarTrekDoc wrote:

@dermonc – absolutely – that’s what I love about EVs –  full tank every day when we wake up;

and cheap.  100 miles costs us 28kW, which costs us $4.20.  Try to get that out of a performance sports sedan.  My Infiniti G37 averages 20MPH (yes, we like driving our sports cars).   That’s over $20 if we’re lucky to find cheap gas (we can’t unless go to Costco 10 mi away).   That $15 differential, drove 27,000 miles last year on the Tesla 3 = $4000 savings on fuel alone.

Click to expand…

Is that with solar panels?

Click to expand...

I'm still waiting on delivery of my model 3, but my numbers would be as follows I'm assuming.

Depending on how spirited you drive or how heavy your foot is, it's about 240W per mile with the model 3. My round trip commute is 40 miles mostly highway and I don't really drive all that crazy so I'd assume I'd get about that. So it takes 9.6 kW to commute.

My electric bill at home, I pay on average a little less than $0.09 per kW. No solar or anything of the sort. Also no off/peak charging rates. So that's about $0.86 for the commute to work daily.

Current vehicle is 2011 v6 awd highlander (I know not the most efficient) that gets about 20 mpg. My gas is pretty cheap at around $2.45 a gallon. So that's about $4.90 for my current commute.

With that being said, I hear there's some charging efficiencies like 10% lost due to cables or whatever, so that would bring up the model 3's cost to $0.95 for the commute.

I plan on posting 1 month real world numbers and experience when I get the car.

[StarTrekDoc]

@q-school -  my brother drives to snow regularly.   Reports 10-15% decrease on overall efficiency and range depending on the road conditions on top of the cold.   So not a dramatic impact, but for distance folk on smaller batteries, it may pose an issue

 

@burritos - we have PV+ Batteries.   The TOU-5 from SDGE is built specifically for EVs.   All new tables have pk times - typically 4p-10pm these days.   The scary thing is PUC just approved yesterday the rolling blackouts for DAYS to minimize wildfire risks.   That's going to make a run on PV+Battery units once the word gets out and first blackout occurs.

@Nysoz -  240W is pretty good.  We average 260-280W/mile just we like driving our car.  My brother and good friend are  hypermilers and 200-220W is where they live.   That's some cheap electricity and gas!  Oh California sunshine taxes --- just gotta love it.   The larger the cable, the better.  I would get a better charger than the portable skinny one that comes with the 3.   Our JuiceBox's cable is x2 gauge.  Never gets warm like the included charger.

[White.Beard.Doc]

My local utility pays us a monthly rebate to charge the Teslas at night after midnight when the grid is underutilized.  So we make solar during the day, get paid for it from the utility, then get it back to use it at night, and on top of that we get paid around $50 a month for charging off peak after midnight.  It is a good deal and it saves us even more on fueling the EVs.

 

[Tyche]

Reminiscent of the Subaru Baja now extinct

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R35gWBtLCYg&fbclid=IwAR1umL61IlgDtIWa91UWFEJKZGeduHqsAXz-PlrhLGZaCcRdrM07QRLiprI

[Nysoz]

These are my notes for the past month of owning a newer build model 3. Tried to remain as objective as possible, but disclaimer I am a fan of Tesla. Edit: I've tried to make paragraphs but can't figure out how to. Sorry!

Took delivery of dual motor model 3 June 1st. $50k configured, $55k after tax/fees. $3750 tax credit.

Ordering process is all online, just like shopping on amazon. Bought the car on vacation while sitting on a couch with my phone. Got financing through my bank online as well. Took less than a week to get a VIN/MVPA and finalized financing. I live about 3.5 hours from a delivery center so qualified for home delivery. I was given a tentative delivery date 1.5 weeks later and that came and went. Apparently the contracted delivery driver's truck had issues and they couldn't get a hold of them anymore. The lack of communication during this time was disappointing for sure. Escalated to a delivery manager and ended up getting a different truck delivery driver and the car was delivered to a gas station travel center nearby (delivery truck was too large for neighborhood roads) 2 days later. From order to delivery was about 3 weeks.

On the drive home I heard slight wind noises but once I figured out how to turn on the radio, didn't notice anymore with radio going. Don't notice significant road noise otherwise. Seeing out of the back window is relatively limited compared to my old SUV, but better than a mustang I was given as a rental once. The backup camera can be pulled up anytime and is crystal clear.

The acceleration and handling of the car is better than I've ever experienced. To be fair I've never driven a true sports/performance car, but the performance is way better than I would ever need on a regular basis. It makes merging onto the highway a breeze and even going uphill, I leave other cars behind rather quickly. The car sits pretty low to the ground and due to the low center of gravity from the batteries, the car doesn't roll at all. One thing I didn't expect was due to the low ground clearance, I scrape the bottom of my car exiting my neighborhood. It didn't seem to cause any damage that I've noticed, but I've started to take the other way out of the neighborhood which adds 1 mile/3 minutes to my commute.

I've heard all the delivery nightmares people go through, so I checked every thing I could remember that I've heard of.

No major panel gaps that I could notice. I didn't go over every part with a ruler and measure. But it looks relatively even.

There were no major paint defects but I did see some really minor scuffs on a bumper.

The initial model 3 design did let a ton of water into the trunk when lifted up, so the design was improved. The trunk still does let a small amount of water in when lifted up, but nothing like the old youtube videos.

On the inside, the seats are very comfortable and the sound system is fantastic. I really enjoy the minimalistic dash and design. It took 2 days to get used to MCU which is very responsive just like an iPad. Don't have to fidget much at all once everything set up. Not hard to see current speed at all. Some of the materials on the inside do feel like they belong more in a economy car, but the things I interact with on a regular basis feel premium to me.

With electric motors and regenerative braking, it essentially makes 1 pedal driving possible. I can drive 30 minutes to work and only touch the brake once or twice. It was more aggressive than I was expecting at first, but got used to it in about 2 days and can drive and slow down smoothly.

I don't have the FSD option but have the included base 'autopilot' which is a fancy cruise control. It maintains speed and stays in the middle of lanes. Also maintains a set distance from the car in front of me which is amazing on the highway or in stop and go traffic. It's just more aggressive with acceleration and slowing down than I would personally do.

Charge rate with regular wall outlet is about 1 kWh/hr or about 4-5 MPH. With overnight charging and catching up on weekends, it covers a 40 mile round trip daily commute and a couple extra trips to the gym or get groceries during the week. I am still getting electrician to install higher amp plug for $1600 (high price due to having to dig trench and lay conduit around back of house). I was going to initially stay with regular outlet, but car is too fun to drive for just commutes and the hospital system is wanting me to help out a sister hospital with moonlighting coverage an hour away. An additional bonus is that there is reserved EV parking (and free charging) in the nearby city parking structure. It basically ensures I don't have to search for parking even on busy weekends. Downloading the plugshare app on my phone made me realize how many charging options there are around even my relatively rural area, including free options.

I did take a mini trip 2 hours away recently and used a supercharger there. It charged the car from 50 to 90% in 30 minutes. It allowed us enough time to walk to the nearby starbucks for a drink, shop for a new duvet cover at some outlet store, and use the bathroom. I was having to speed up my SO a little too because if you leave your car plugged in when it's done charging you can accrue fees.

I took my partners out to check out the car and acceleration. One partner says it's like being in a spaceship and the other likened the acceleration to a rollercoaster. They think it's weird not having any engine noises so the one is sticking with BMWs (even though he complains about how much he has to take it in for repairs or other odd issues).

Mileage after 1 month is 1671 using 381 kWh or 228 Wh/mi. I've gotten at least 75 kWh free through free supercharging or other free charging opportunities around me. Electricity is slightly less than $0.09 kWh at home. For simplicity sake, lets say I paid for 300 kWh charging my car and there's a 10% efficiency loss for charging which equates to about $30 to drive for the month. Gas average around me was $2.30-2.40 last I looked. I was driving a v6 awd highlander that averaged around 20-22 mpg which would have cost $178 for the month.

Overall, very impressed with the car. It feels like half car and half gadget, almost like sitting in an iphone or a computer. I used to hate driving in my old SUV and would have my SO drive most places. Owning the car has made driving fun and enjoyable again. EVs are definitely the future, and even if Tesla goes bankrupt (I really don't think it will anytime soon despite their bad finances on paper) it has pushed the narrative to make the old guard realize this. EV driving is practical for the majority of people now and as technology and infrastructure improves, it'll be good enough for everyone except in very extreme circumstances.

It's definitely not the most frugal purchase that I'm used to leaning towards though.  Maybe the Tesla model 3 SR+ would be a more frugal choice and would need a test drive to see if it's as fun. I would have to give all other EV options test drive as well but have wanted a Tesla for a long time and nothing else would have scratched that itch.

[Panscan]

Can you elaborate on the regenerative braking making 1 peddle driving possible? I understand the concept of capturing brake loss but don't you still have to brake?