Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Should childhood vaccines be compulsory ?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The White Coat Investor
    replied
    Thread closed because I'm getting hate mail about it. That's clearly a sign that it is generating more heat than light.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dilaudidopenia
    replied
    Personal liberty blah blah invasive procedure blah blah foreign substance blah blah government dystopia.

    The NNT for vaccines is likely the lowest of anything we do in medicine.

    Anyone arguing against compulsory vaccination citing "rare side effects" betrays a lack of understanding of statistics as well as a lack of basic human sympathy for the 3 mo who can't get the influenza vaccine, the 15 yo with leukemia on chemotherapy, the adult with a true allergy to a vaccine component, the 16 yo girl with HPV+ cervical CA who delays presentation out of fear of talking to her parents.

    But we kept our FREEDOM so that's cool.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lordosis
    replied
    Oldie but goodie!

    https://youtu.be/RfdZTZQvuCo


    Can we run this in the waiting room?

    Leave a comment:


  • Zaphod
    replied










    Followed this thread w/ interest. I can see both sides and don’t have super strong feelings off the bat although I’m pro-vax obviously.

    I think the anti-vax movement has triggered a weird kind of reverse self-righteous moral panic. There is this subset of people in my life who are strongly pro-vax (e.g. constantly on social media about it) who are, how to say this delicately, not nearly as committed to logic and high quality information in all areas of their life.
    Click to expand…


    Thats just human nature and we all do it to one extent or another.
    Click to expand…


    Yeah, I don’t know about that. At least not to this level.

    Particularly since the anti-anti-vax crowd on social media seems to trade in snarky memes about evidence, data, etc.
    Click to expand...


    If you look, you'll see it everywhere, obviously its most noticeable in hot topics. Probably brings out a lot of otherwise afraid to engage in debate kind of people since its basically a forgone conclusion from a data point of view. Leads to celebratory dunking and the like, annoying but not wrong. We all have blind spots that much I promise.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tim
    replied
    Public health policies are for the overall public protection from serious illness. Vaccines have been recommended for a long time. If the risk is determined to be such the mandates need to compulsory, so be it. That has not been recommended yet. I and my family benefit from public health policies and gladly vaccinate.

    If one chooses not to vaccinate if it’s compulsory, then they forfeit their right to circulate in public places.

    Their choice. No home schooled only, isolation.

    Leave a comment:


  • jhwkr542
    replied




    If vaccines are mandatory, what’s next? Gonna outlaw alcohol? How’d that work out for you?




    Not a great comparison.  Are people going to be smuggling vaccines out of the country?





    How about outlawing guns in schools and hospitals? That just makes gun-free zones into soft targets.


    Not the way it works per this article https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l542



    No, I think a balanced approach is better. Mandatory for public school attendance without a medical excuse? That gives people the option to home school if they want. But I think we need to be careful what is mandatory. Tetanus shouldn’t be mandatory to attend school. It’s not contagious. Same with smallpox and anthrax. But MMR? Diptheria? Pertussis? HiB? Sure.

    I just think outlawing stupidity is a very slippery slope. There are lots of dangerous things I do that lots of reasonable people probably think should be outlawed too. And yes, me doing them could cause other people to be hurt coming to rescue me.
    Click to expand...


    The slippery slope argument is typically a fallacious argument and is in this context.  Mandating that parents let their kids get vaccinated is not the same as allowing someone to go rock climbing.  We already outlaw stupidity in many forms, and we haven't devolved.  Things like drunk driving, reckless driving, shooting off fireworks in neighborhoods, to name a few.

    Leave a comment:


  • MPMD
    replied







    Followed this thread w/ interest. I can see both sides and don’t have super strong feelings off the bat although I’m pro-vax obviously.

    I think the anti-vax movement has triggered a weird kind of reverse self-righteous moral panic. There is this subset of people in my life who are strongly pro-vax (e.g. constantly on social media about it) who are, how to say this delicately, not nearly as committed to logic and high quality information in all areas of their life.
    Click to expand…


    Thats just human nature and we all do it to one extent or another.
    Click to expand...


    Yeah, I don't know about that. At least not to this level.

    Particularly since the anti-anti-vax crowd on social media seems to trade in snarky memes about evidence, data, etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lordosis
    replied
    “Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right.”

    Salvor Hardin

    Leave a comment:


  • ScopeMonkey
    replied
    Of course, vaccines should be mandatory for kids; good piece in yesterday's Times:https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/09/opinion/sunday/the-real-horror-of-the-anti-vaxxers.html

    Leave a comment:


  • Zaphod
    replied




    Followed this thread w/ interest. I can see both sides and don’t have super strong feelings off the bat although I’m pro-vax obviously.

    I think the anti-vax movement has triggered a weird kind of reverse self-righteous moral panic. There is this subset of people in my life who are strongly pro-vax (e.g. constantly on social media about it) who are, how to say this delicately, not nearly as committed to logic and high quality information in all areas of their life.
    Click to expand...


    Thats just human nature and we all do it to one extent or another.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ykcor
    replied
    Unvaccinated children, drivers who drive while intoxicated, pit bull owners etc.  put others at serious risk. (I'll leave off unregulated firearm ownership since it is a political hot topic). Obesity and outdoors smoking does not put others at risk. These can be regulated by higher health insurance costs.

     

    Leave a comment:


  • ACPC
    replied


    Even if cervical cancer has good prognosis with early detection, colpos and LEEPs are not exactly fun.
    Click to expand...


    Well put Anne.

    Also, lets not forget oropharyngeal and anorectal cancer from HPV.

    Leave a comment:


  • Anne
    replied







    Vaccine for cancer=dystopian tyranny?

    We might be reaching here guys..
    Click to expand…


    No, that is a strawman. I have nothing against a vaccine for cancer. The issue is whether government has the moral right to compel people to get vaccinated for an STD that cannot be communicated unless two people decide to have sex. This is dramatically different than arguing that one needs a pertussis vaccine because we all share the same air. We don’t have to all share the same bed.
    Click to expand...


    But do parents have a moral right not to get their children vaccinated because it's a vaccine for an STD, after all, and their children wouldn't do *that*?

    I grew up near a very religious community.  The teenage pregnancy rate among my friends from that community was way higher than than the national average, because their parents didn't think their kids would have sex and didn't take sufficient precautions.  People now there get all up in arms about gardasil.  Even if cervical cancer has good prognosis with early detection, colpos and LEEPs are not exactly fun.  Should a parent be allowed to make that decision for their child?

    Leave a comment:


  • RandomDoc
    replied
    First of all yes. They should absolutely be mandatory.
    I didn’t read all the posts. This thing blew up quickly. I would like to see insurance companies make this mandatory in order to continue be insured against vaccine preventable diseases. For instance, the kid in the Pacific Northwest who recently got tetanus and ran up a >$800,000 hospital bill, which doesn’t even include his rehab stay. His parents had not vaccinated him. Talk about quality of health care dollars spent, that’s crazy. I think it would be fair for an insurance company to say you could have at least tried to prevent this. We won’t pay for this preventable disease.

    Leave a comment:


  • ACPC
    replied


    And if they’re going to be mandatory, they should be paid for with tax money. Those suckers aren’t cheap. Add it all up:
    Click to expand...


    Well, they add up to a lot less than one night in the hospital (or an ED workup at most hospitals), which we all pay for indirectly when someone un- or under-insured lands there...

    Preventative care is almost always the preferred care, and vaccines are a pretty easy sell from a societal perspective, both ethically and fiscally.


    Saying one persons’ kid might sleep with another and give them an STD so everyone needs this vaccine means giving government the authority over any possible individual choice that might affect another. I prefer my freedom, danger and all, to the security a dystopian world of this sort.
    Click to expand...


    There must be a little more nuance to it than that. Whether in the sexual domain or elsewhere, some of our children's choices will inevitably be different than what we would wish. I mean, one should at least consider the possibility that kids make different choices than their parents (or are unfortunate victims of sexual violence), and may need that protection one day. We love our children and want them to be protected and healthy even if we don't agree with their choices. The math is pretty straightforward here.

    Again, preventative care is almost always the preferred care, and vaccines for HPV are a pretty easy sell from a societal perspective, both ethically and fiscally. The government should mandate child protection, and it's pretty clear that's what this is. With all due respect, it's not your freedom that's at stake here, it's your grown child's freedom to make their own choices with their own agency, and not be without immune protection against the consequences of those choices.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X