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Should childhood vaccines be compulsory ?

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  • #31
    In today’s world, how does society “compel” anything?

    Shutoff parents internet access might be the most effective.

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    • #32
      I saw this article this weekend.  Unimaginable.  To not vaccinate your kid, have them in the hospital for 2 months with the majority in the ICU, and then on discharge to refuse vaccinations again... no words.  I agree with some of the posts above.  Child neglect and the parents should be held financially responsible.  They should be required to repay the insurance company.  I mean, almost deadly consequences to their child and that didn't change their behavior towards vaccination.

      https://www.huffpost.com/entry/oregon-pediatric-tetanus-case_n_5c82c809e4b0d9361627f055

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      • #33





        anti vaxxers who really aren’t effecting herd immunity 
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        But the anti-vaxxers are affecting herd immunity, and though a small percentage on average, they geographically cluster. Furthermore, they are clearly associated with infections in vaccinated children (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2503179). My kid got pertussis last year, despite vaccination (though pertussis resurgence specifically is likely a consequence of both anti-vaxxers and waning immunity).


        I guess I just don’t understand where the argument goes. 
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        As for smoking, I no more think that folks should be able to smoke in public areas than pee in the drinking water. What they do on their own is fine if they pay increased insurance premiums to cover their increased risk (since it is a matter of choice). I do think that insurance premium increases should take people’s agency into account when it comes to lifestyle decisions, but not to penalize them for the non-modifiable circumstances of their birth. This can obviously descend into a philosophical quandary involving free will and genetic predisposition (e.g. susceptibility to addiction, etc), but there is a reasonable line somewhere.

        For kids with secondhand smoke exposure and obesity, I think there is obviously some nuance involved with how society should interact with the parents to protect the child, but also an obvious imperative to protect children from harm.
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        Actually increased insurance premiums for those that choose not to vaccinate doesn't seem like a bad idea.

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        • #34




          Not sure how someone can argue vaccines should be required yet things like smoking which do tangible direct harm to everyone in the world are OK. So if you’re going to make this argument then you have to keep going and change a whole lot of behaviors and cause a lot of restriction.

          I think getting rid of smoking world wide would do way more for public health than mandating vaccines for the anti vaxxers.
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          They dont allow smoking in public almost anywhere anymore. Smokers out in public arent causing others to be at risk. They mostly cause themselves trouble. Yes, they have higher medical costs but they pay a ton in taxes, have higher insurance costs and die younger. Argument to be made it balances out. Smoking is far more regulated and its much more of a personal rather than a social problem.

          I dont think its an either or, or really comparable at all. One is personal and the other is public. Yes there are externalities but smokers largely contribute for theirs.

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          • #35
            I'm a little surprised by this thread.  Sounds like most of y'all wouldn't mind living in communist china with their social credit system. 

            Compulsory for school attendance, etc. sounds great.  That's already the case in most states, both public and private schools, daycare, summer camp.  It makes sense.  This should probably be expanded.  But it's typically not a legal requirement per-se, just a prerequisite to attendance.

            But to legally compel someone to be injected over and over just for being born and the fact that they exist is not just a slippery slope, it's the fall too.

            What about the annual guess flu vaccine?  Does everyone's kid need an anthrax vaccine?  Or insert-here any new wonder-drug some big-pharma's lobbyists push.  Etc. etc.  No thanks.

            IMO the problem is not the homeschoolers.  Those folks are very few and virtually out of the young population anyway.  It's the exceptions and excusals that allow tons of kids to go unvaccinated and dwell among us.

             

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            • #36







              Not sure how someone can argue vaccines should be required yet things like smoking which do tangible direct harm to everyone in the world are OK. So if you’re going to make this argument then you have to keep going and change a whole lot of behaviors and cause a lot of restriction.

              I think getting rid of smoking world wide would do way more for public health than mandating vaccines for the anti vaxxers.
              Click to expand…


              They dont allow smoking in public almost anywhere anymore. Smokers out in public arent causing others to be at risk. They mostly cause themselves trouble. Yes, they have higher medical costs but they pay a ton in taxes, have higher insurance costs and die younger. Argument to be made it balances out. Smoking is far more regulated and its much more of a personal rather than a social problem.

              I dont think its an either or, or really comparable at all. One is personal and the other is public. Yes there are externalities but smokers largely contribute for theirs.
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              Smoking is tortious to anyone around, if only for the discomfort. If you live or work in a smoke-filled environment, there is a real health risk.

              I agree it is not a great comparison, but it is along the same line of general thought.  If we can legally compel you to put certain things in your body, we can legally compel you to do anything.

              Personally I don't care about my right to light a cigarette but I hate prohibitionists and other temperance folks nevertheless.  :P 

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              • #37
                Breaking news: You are legally compelled to do all kinds of things whether you choose to acknowledge them as such or not. As doctors you know this well. You have to have a license, have to do cme, have to pay malpractice, etc...

                School is mandatory. So are taxes, etc...and so forth.

                While most schools have vaccination rules 47 states have "religious" exemptions and 17 states have "philosophical" exemptions. Thats totally bs. Theres no religious or philosophical reasoning its simply pandering. You can have your views, but you dont get to eat the cake as well. Im philosophically against taxes, government doesnt care. If I choose to earn, I pay them.

                In america, there are very very vanishingly few smoke filled environments, its not 1970. Slippery slope arguments while at times useful just seem paranoid here. For major viruses with extremely high infectivity rates and high morbidity, etc...they should be mandatory for public participation.

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                • #38
                  Probably bias in such a survey on a site full of healthcare professionals.

                  The radiologist in me says get your icky germs off of me.

                  Seriously, though. My dog is required to be fully vaccinated to go to the county dog park. Just get your kid vaccinated...

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                  • #39




                    That’s already the case in most states, both public and private schools, daycare, summer camp.  It makes sense.  This should probably be expanded.
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                    this is the problem. even with that in place, we are having record outbreaks of previously declared eradicated diseases.




                    to be injected over and over just for being born and the fact that they exist is not just a slippery slope, it’s the fall too.
                    Click to expand...


                    society has put their foot down on certain items. this should be added to the list.




                    What about the annual guess flu vaccine?
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                    yes. Flu is a high risk infection. it is recommended for everyone >6m old annually.




                    Or insert-here any new wonder-drug some big-pharma’s lobbyists push.
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                    straw man argument. we are talking vaccines. and yes, like HPV being added to schedule, new vaccines will be required.






                    Does everyone’s kid need an anthrax vaccine?
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                    really? thats your argument? there are guidelines for Anthrax. it is not routinely recommended.




                    IMO the problem is not the homeschoolers.
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                    yes it is.




                    Those folks are very few and virtually out of the young population anyway.
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                    again, no they are not. see record outbreaks.

                     

                    are you/your spouse/your kids 100% vaccinated on time as recommended by the CDC/AAP?

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                    • #40


                      While most schools have vaccination rules
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                      and these are so full of holes they are kinda worthless.

                      take SB 277 in CA. it does not require the full doses per CDC/AAP, and kids may remain in school for years until they hit a checkpoint then must show proof, thus meaning they can continue to be 100% unvaccinated for a period of time.

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                      • #41




                        As a grandfather, I’m alarmed at reports of diseases like measles and whooping cough that were not a concern while my children were growing up. My daughter reports that parents get around immunization for their kids by homeschooling or applying as conscientious objectors. The resulting decline in “herd immunity” puts other children at risk.
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                        Having been subject to a mandatory vaccination program with very real medical consequences in a small percentage of those vaccinated (smallpox-heart block, cellulitis etc; anthrax too), I would have to say no. I'd probably be okay with some social consequences though like exclusion from school.

                        I think individual rights are pretty important, even if I disagree with the choices being made. Yes, my kids are all vaccinated.
                        Helping those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street since 2011

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                        • #42


                          Does everyone’s kid need an anthrax vaccine?
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                          CDC VIS: Anthrax vaccine is also recommended for unvaccinated people of all ages who have been exposed to anthrax. The vaccine has not been studied or used in children less than 18 years of age and its use in exposed children must be under an Investigational New Drug (IND) program and requires informed consent from a parent or legal guardian.

                           

                          so no...

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                          • #43


                            My daughter reports that parents get around immunization for their kids by homeschooling or applying as conscientious objectors.
                            Click to expand...


                            top 10 threat to global health.

                            not top 100.

                            not in just parts of the world.

                             

                            https://www.who.int/emergencies/ten-threats-to-global-health-in-2019

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                            • #44







                              Does everyone’s kid need an anthrax vaccine?
                              Click to expand…


                              CDC VIS: Anthrax vaccine is also recommended for unvaccinated people of all ages who have been exposed to anthrax. The vaccine has not been studied or used in children less than 18 years of age and its use in exposed children must be under an Investigational New Drug (IND) program and requires informed consent from a parent or legal guardian.

                               

                              so no…
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                              You're missing the point.  If someone in the DOH or the DOD decides it'd be a good idea to immunize the population, all of a sudden in this proposed federal compulsory birth vaccination environment, everyone has to get it, even if the risk is nil.

                              And not just anthrax vac but a myriad of other drugs on the market now or in the future.

                              Edit just to elaborate with another example instead of anthrax... Heart disease is the #1 killer.  Pfizer lobbies some congressmen that everyone should be on statins.  Sure, it'll cure everyone, insurance costs will go down, we'll save so many lives.  Common sense politics.  We're literally letting people die every day that we don't pass this bill.  Or again, insert-here any widespread malady and potential "cure."

                              Instead of arguing over tax policy or corporate regulation, suddenly politics is now deciding literally what goes into your body.  It's not that far-fetched.

                              Comment


                              • #45







                                As a grandfather, I’m alarmed at reports of diseases like measles and whooping cough that were not a concern while my children were growing up. My daughter reports that parents get around immunization for their kids by homeschooling or applying as conscientious objectors. The resulting decline in “herd immunity” puts other children at risk.
                                Click to expand…


                                Having been subject to a mandatory vaccination program with very real medical consequences in a small percentage of those vaccinated (smallpox-heart block, cellulitis etc; anthrax too), I would have to say no. I’d probably be okay with some social consequences though like exclusion from school.

                                I think individual rights are pretty important, even if I disagree with the choices being made. Yes, my kids are all vaccinated.
                                Click to expand...


                                This guy gets it.

                                This is the land of the free, not a totalitarian state.  Individual rights matter.

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